Winchester Black Talon

E

E.J.W.

New member
I wasn't quite sure where to put this post so here goes........
While digging through a bunch of my shooting gear I haven't touched in a really long time, I came across a brand new 20 round box of Winchester Black Talon ammo for 40 S&W.
I remember this ammo when you could walk into a store an buy it like any other ammo. Then Winchester stopped making it for some reason?? I think it was too "deadly" or something.
Does anybody have an idea of what this box might be worth?
I may take it with me to the next gun show and see what I can get for it.
Thanks
E.
 
I think they stopped making it simply b/c of the name. I wouldn't expect them to be worth any more than a box of any other name brand HP.
 
There was a shooting where a man used Black Talons in his handgun to shoot a bunch of innocent people. The press found out what kind of ammunition he used and it became political nightmare for Winchester. They pulled it off the market, but continued to produce it by the name of Winchester Ranger Controlled Expansion or something like that.

The newer stuff produced by Winchester is very similar and even a little superior.

This may sound bad, but if you're trying to get the most out of it, find some sucker who'll pay $100 for it. Nobody with a booth at the gunshow will, but some mall ninja with a bayonet attached to his Mossberg 590 might.

Personally I say keep them. They'll be worth much more in 50 years.
 
I was working for NRA when Winchester brought out the Black Talon. We had a big spread in the American Rifleman on it.

I had a chance to talk with Winchester's PR director at the time (cannot remember his name after all this time) and I broached this subject with him. He didn't exactly laugh me off, but I could tell he thought I was nuts.

About 6 months later, the first rumblings of problems began when someone in the black community said that the rounds were specifically designed to kill black people, and someone else said they were endorsed by the NRA, the Negro Removal Association.

Things went downhill REALLY quickly after that, and Winchester pulled them from the market.
 
aren't they sold now under the Winchester "Ranger SXT" name? (which as the joke went, apparently, stood for "Same eXact Thing")

I've got two boxes of Black Talons in .40S&W that a friend gave me when he got out of firearms and sold me his P7M10. I suppose if I were really hit up for cash, I'd think about selling them...but they're kinda neat to look at.
 
I've got the American Rifleman with the Black Talon story. :cool:
Before Winchester pulled the ammo from "civilian" sales, the local Wal-Mart carried it (back then they sold handguns too).
Basically, the Winchester Ranger T currently available to law enforcement is the same thing.
I don't know why the general population would be any less disturbed if a policeman used the ammo to shoot a felon versus a "regular" law abiding citizen, but apparently there is a philosophical difference (think media coverage).
I've got some 45 acp Black Talon and I've considered using a pic. of the box for an avatar as a matter of principle (don't copy my idea :p)
 
There was two reasons why Winchester's "Black Talon" was discontinued for public sale:

First - all the complaints from the medical community due to the fact that the Black Talon would (after fully expanding) cut their fingertips during exploratory surgury. Even finding bullet jacket fragments could mean "death" from AIDS exposure.

Second - the fact that the Black Talon would "catch & spin". The jacket, after expansion would cut & tear tissue during penetration & the points on the ends of the jacket would catch on a bone & spin off in a different direction, cutting tissue as it went.

Dr.'s said the damage caused by the Talon was too extreme to repair & lobbied to stop the sale to John Q. Public. LEO still carry & train w/ the Talon, hence "For LE only" on every box.

BTW- A modified version of the Black Talon "Winchester Ranger-SXT" is available for sale to the public. It's basicly the same bullet as the talon, but doesn't penatrate as deep, & is copper in color.

I don't remember who, but they (60 min., 20-20, etc.) did a show about the "lethality" of the design of the bullet, hence the removal from public consumption.

It's not illegal to own them, or sell to a ammunition collector (why a box of 20rds. goes for $50 a box?!:eek:), but be sure that some D.A. will rake you over the coals should you ever use one in a shootout.

My personal opinion is that Winchester designed the "perfect" bullet. I'm not going to shoot a BG, & afterwards bend over ask "Are you OK?"
 
Thanks for all the info. The acronyms are interesting.....
Don't take me the wrong way, I'm not looking to "get rich" off this one box.
It's just that I sold my 40 a year ago and thought someone else who does own one might be interested in having them to match the 40 they own.
Maybe I will end up keeping them but if I can trade them for something more useful to me (aka a bag or two of #8 mag shot or some brass) I would.
We'll see how it goes at the next gun show.
Thanks and good shootin'
E.
 
Every once in awhile you see some table at the gun show with some Black Talons and a doofus with a big sign - BLACK TALONS - banned by the Federal Goverment - get the last ones!!

Haha.
 
I think an ammo dealer at a show, ought to trade you straight up, for some new ammo in whatever cal you want. And you can get a more up to date bullet design. Don't let them try to skroow you, they will ask a high price for it.
 
There are many bullets to day and for that matter over the last decade just as good or bad depends on your view of the black tallons . Nothin special. I would not pay anymore for them than any other hp today and because there are some what limited in suppy ,i would probably not buy at all. Reather shoot the dpx or just plan x than a tallon or most any premium hp.
 
As mentioned already, Winchester's withdrawal of the BT was really more of a PR move and to be honest, it was probably not a bad idea in retrospect. The Long Island Railroad incident where gunman Collin Ferguson killed several riders with a Ruger P89 using rds of 147gr 9mm BT was really played up by the press. Also around this time, you had Schumer, Clinton, and Reno pushing forward the most aggressive anti-gun movement in history. Winchester's ploy may have defused the situation a bit at the expense of ******* off the pro-gun community. Of course, if Winchester had not played up and encouraged the marketing of these "killer buzzsaws" to begin with, they may not have had this issue.


In any case, the BT was good, but really not any better than any of the other JHPs in it's class. Even then, I much preferred Federal's Hydra-Shok design in all my guns. I still have two new boxes of 230gr BT in the safe somewhere, but these are really worth more as collector pieces than self defense ammo.
 
After that shooting on the Subway in New York they pulled it. A mother of one of the victims was on all the new channels holding a Black Talon that was expanded trying to get them band saying “this is the type of bullet that went through my sons head” she kept noting how the pedals where so sharp on them.
 
Those who may or may not have said "Same X-act Thing" (Winchester Ranger SXT) are correct. Running to a doc appointment now, so I had to skip a bunch :cool:
 
There was two reasons why Winchester's "Black Talon" was discontinued for public sale:

First - all the complaints from the medical community due to the fact that the Black Talon would (after fully expanding) cut their fingertips during exploratory surgury. Even finding bullet jacket fragments could mean "death" from AIDS exposure.

Second - the fact that the Black Talon would "catch & spin". The jacket, after expansion would cut & tear tissue during penetration & the points on the ends of the jacket would catch on a bone & spin off in a different direction, cutting tissue as it went.

Dr.'s said the damage caused by the Talon was too extreme to repair & lobbied to stop the sale to John Q. Public. LEO still carry & train w/ the Talon, hence "For LE only" on every box.
Click to expand...
Not sure where you got this "information", but it's not true: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon
 
I'd buy it from you if you lived near me. Highest I'd pay is $50 and I'd wanna be darn sure there's no corrosion on it.

The Ranger T series is very similar from what I've heard, never fired it personally. But I have shot 9mm Black Talons and they're the most awesome thing every created by human kind.
 
Always someone smarter.....

I knew I'd be flamed by someone who knows the real deal about every bullet type, style, weight, etc., because they read it on the Internet.....

I was responding to the OP with what "I" remembered from what the media put out yrs. ago about "The big bad Black Talon".

Am I a medical examiner or forensic pathologist who has performed the autopsies of fatal shooting victims.... NO.

But... I have been "rolling my own" for several yrs. now, & have played w/ several types of hollowpoints & powder in all types of media

wet phonebooks
ballistic jellatin
full swimming pools
wet clay
water jugs
cardboard (wet & dry)
wood panelling
sheetrock
trees
cars - (gas tank, windshield, doors, engine blocks)

& even the occassional

squrrill
gopher
rabbit
skunk
racoon
boar
deer
elk
cougar
black bear
pit bull (self defense)

I've dug more than 1 or 2 fully expanded Black Talons out of a few of the items listed above & from my own personnal experiences I woudn't dig a fully expanded Talon out of a BG w/ AIDS even if my life depended on it!

I will thank you though, as your link was very informative, & I think most of what was said was true.

However.....

The forensic pathologist who performed the autopsies of the fatal shooting victims gave a detailed presentation about his findings at the 1994 IWBA Wound Ballistics Conference in Sacramento: "The 101 California Shooting: The Black Talon Bullet," Boyd Stevens, M.D., Medical Examiner, San Francisco, CA. He stated that the wound trauma produced by Black Talon was unremarkable, meaning the wounds were no different nor any more severe than wounds produced by typical JHP handgun bullets. Each of the victims incurred fatal injury because a bullet passed through a vital structure.
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Dr. Stevens looked @ what.... 9 wounds? You're baising what I said was "un-true" based on what a forensic pathologist said after looking @ 9 wounds?!

The rest of your link says:

This is where the police only Winchester Ranger Talon (formerly Black Talon and Ranger SXT) bullet departs from conventional expanding hollowpoint bullets. Ranger Talon adds an additional wounding mechanism: cutting.
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When Ranger Talon expands, its copper jacket peels back to form six sharp claws. These claws protrude outward just slightly beyond the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder.
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Picture 6 fish hook sharp points attached by razorbades. :eek: If you handload a 230gr. BT over 5.5gr. of Unique, the claws don't "overexpand", & open up to .909 :eek::eek:

If a hollowpoint bullet is propelled too quickly, it will either overexpand and not penetrate deeply enough, or it will fragment. If the bullet fragments, it defeats the purpose of using an expanding bullet.
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One of the things Winchester changed from old style Talon to new style Ranger, & FWIW - I've NEVER seen a Black Talon that shed it's jacket or lost a claw!! 147gr 9mm., 124gr .357Sig, 180gr .357Mag, 250gr .44Mag, 230gr 45acp

These lacerations contribute little to overall wound severity.
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What bullet wound insn't severe?! :eek:

However, if Ranger Talon happens to pass very close to a major cardiovascular structure, instead of merely shoving it aside as it passes by, one of the six claws might be in position to cut the wall of this structure to cause profuse bleeding.
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Funny.... , isn't that kinda what I said? :barf:

This additional cutting mechanism gives Ranger Talon the potential to be approximately 3% to 5% more effective than other expanding bullets of the same caliber. In one out of every 20-30 shootings, Ranger Talon might make a difference.
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Why LEO use them! Any bullet that gives even 01% advantage over a BG... I'll take it!!

In order for Ranger Talon's increased wounding potential to be realized, at least two conditions must be met: 1) the bullet's wound track must pass close enough to a major blood vessel to physically touch it, and 2) one of the talons must be in the right orientation to physically contact the wall of the blood vessel as the bullet rifles past. If one of these two conditions are not met, the wound will be no more severe than any other JHP expanding bullet.

This very slight advantage could be just enough to save the life of a police officer (or you!) who has to shoot a psychotic, enraged or chemically intoxicated attacker who is oblivious to being shot.
Click to expand...

I own several of Winchester's BTs, both old style & new..... I'm keep'n mine! :D
 
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