Winchester 1873 ammo
- Thread starter budrock56
- Start date
An M1873 built in 1883 is probably not a smokeless action. Is it safe to fire smokeless in it? I certainly won’t say either way, but the pressure curve for blackpowder is significantly different than that of smokeless. Personally, I’d fell better is the rifle was produced when smokeless loads were common. YMMV.
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I think probably the cowboy action loads would be suitable. Even the modern clones of the Henry, 1866 and 1873 Winchesters are not all that strong. I haven't owned an M73 in years but the one I had was a 38 WCF (38-40) in generally fair shape. At the time there were two loads sold for those old cartridges, one for handguns and one, a more modern load with jacketed bullet for the later 1892 Winchester and not recommended for handguns. I shot the pistol level loads in my rifle without problem. I did have a gunsmith check the rifle out beforehand and he said it would be safe for the handgun level loads. If the OP's rifle in mechanically sound, then cowboy loads.loading and enjoy. Have a competent gunsmith check it out first.
Paul B.
Paul B.
ligonierbill
New member
Load holy black. It's easy. Can't overload. You won't fit 40 grains in a modern case, but it will still send a 200 cast with authority. Cleanup is not difficult, just messy. Enjoy!
Keep it BP.
Even "cowboy" smokeless loadings have a much faster pressure rise-time
(i.e., spike) compared to BP -- even for the same eventual max pressure.
Cleanup... just get a small funnel and pour hot water/drop of dishsoap down the barrel, chased w/ a braided-wire bore pull-through/tight patch or two.
While still warm, swab from muzzle w/ std 1-piece Dewey/RemOil/BreakFree CLP patch(es) and you're done.
Even "cowboy" smokeless loadings have a much faster pressure rise-time
(i.e., spike) compared to BP -- even for the same eventual max pressure.
Cleanup... just get a small funnel and pour hot water/drop of dishsoap down the barrel, chased w/ a braided-wire bore pull-through/tight patch or two.
While still warm, swab from muzzle w/ std 1-piece Dewey/RemOil/BreakFree CLP patch(es) and you're done.
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Just about ANY factory 44-40 load is loaded to less than BP max pressures because of the faster pressure rise curve. IIRC, max pressure for the BP loads is around 21,000 psi, smokeless loads are around 18,000 psi. Make sure you are shooting lead in it, the steel is softer than later steels and jacketed loads will wear it out in a hurry. I kinda take the middle ground on my BP cartridges, I load with American Pioneer BP substitute. Even full case loads are pretty mild, and the cleanup is much easier and not as critical as real BP. But of course, some people just GOTTA
shoot real BP, so you can always do that if that's what you want. Just remember to go buy all new reloading equipment for the BP so you don't wind up in the evening news.Those prices are for either a really special gun or somebody is delusional. I picked up a pretty rough 1873 in 32-20 a few years back, sold it for $1200. Really clean ones can go for upwards of $3000-$4000, but run of the mill examples are considerably lower.
Jim Watson
New member
I have not seen this "pressure curve" for black vs Nitro powders except an ungraduated sketch in an old NRA article about shotgun shells.
Where can I find the numbers this Common Internet Assertion is based on?
Where can I find the numbers this Common Internet Assertion is based on?
Savvy_Jack
New member
More myths about smokeless powders!
In 1895 when Winchester introduced smokeless powder for the 44-40, it specifically named the Winchester 73' on the label.
So that myth is BUSTED!
In the beginning there was slow burning black powder. Then there was a little faster burning (faster than black or at least known to be unstable at times) smokeless powder that specifically replaced black powder. Then there was an improved smokeless powder to be used in black powder rifles and then by 1900, fast burning pistol powders. Also entwined was the newer slower burning rifle powders like SR-80, IMR-1204 and IMR-4227. By the time IMR-4227 was in full swing, as well as 2400, the black powder replacement powders died off leaving the slower burning rifle powders. As years passed these slower burning rifle powders were re-named MAGNUM powders.
ANY MODERN FACTORY AMMUNITION is safe for your 44-40 as long as the rifle is in good sound operating condition. Even Buffalo Bore's "Heavy" 44-40 is safe for it.
With that said, I am still missing a "pressure" link from that time period. My early pre-1884 44-40 cartridge cases produced 14,000psi while the same loads in post-1884 WRA headstamped cases produced 12,000ish psi while the same loads in modern starline brass only produced 8,953psi.
SAAMI didn't set a standard in stone until about 1970 at 12,000cup and by 2015 12,000cup/11,000psi....much lower than original black powder pressures.
Pressure curves or no pressure curves....
Pre-1884 - 14,385psi, thats about 15,000ish cup (all firearms), 1,325fps
Post-1884 - 12,500psi, thats about 13,000ish cup (all firearms), 1,325fps
1895 Smokeless - unknown, safe for the Win. 73' (not for pistols),1,300fps
1900 Smokeless - unknown, safe for ALL FIREARMS, 1,300fps
1903 Smokeless - HV Low Pressures (unknown), Model 92 only, 1,500fps
1910 Smokeless - HV high pressures, 22,000cup, Model 92' and Marlin 88's/94's only, 1,570fps
So why High Velocity Low pressures? During the early 1930's we can see that the powders used during that time included Sharpeshooter. On the back of the can it shows a "44-40 W.C.F. High Velocity" load of 17gr. We have to go look at the handloading data of the time to check the pressures. According to 1937 Sharpe, 17.3gr of Sharpeshooter produced....da da ta da.......14,000cup, maybe 13,000ish psi. Obviously lower than the early 14,000psi black powder loads BUT YET NOT FOR THE 73' OR PISTOLS!!!!
It has also been said that the early smokeless powders, maybe Dupont #2, produced even less pressures than black powder. However, it has also been said that the "powdery" residue could settle into the primer pockets and create higher pressures.
Confused yet?
It all started with the .30-40 cal testings and is extremely related today!
The early smokeless powders were developed using the 30-40 Krag thus the early smokeless powders could be considered .30 cal powders. Many of those .30 cal powders worked well in the ole black powder calibers to include the 44-40 and 45-70.
By the mid 1930's, here were the popular powders;
Black Powder replacements
Dupont #1 - phased out
Dupont #2 - phased out
Sharpshooter - early .30 cal by Laflin & Rand
Sharpshooter, now under Hercules...still a black powder replacement
Lightning, another .30 cal powder also used in the 44-40
SR-80, a "bulky" 'Sporting Rifle-80' powder but not a Bulk powder like Dupont #2
IMR-1204 ("1204") another .30 cal powder to include "small calibers"
IMR-4227, directly replaced 1204 (Today's IMR MAGNUM powder)
2400, designed for the 22 Hornet and 25-20 (Today's Alliant's MAGNUM powder)
Pistol Powders
Unique - Originally a shogun powder adapted to small calibers and as we all know, many calibers
Bullseye - Came from "Infallible" floor sweepings but is/was position sensitive in large cal cases like the 44-40.
With all of that said, I have settle with three loads
Winchester 73' (Group I Rifles)
Slower burning rifle powder, Reloder 7, 43-214A (427098 replica) 1,361fps @ 12,000psi (13,000ish cup). 40 consecutive shots inside 3 5/8" @ 100 yards.
Can be used in revolvers but produce only 700fps due to slow burn rate.
Marlin 1894CB (Group II Rifles)
Slower burning IMR-4227, Winchester JSP, 1,590fps @ 18,000psi (22,000ish cup), 2 1/8" Groups @ 50 yards
Pistols - Colt, Uberti (Consider them in Group I)
Unique
Trailboss
Bullseye
NOTE: Too fast for rifle loads and create too high pressures when trying to achieve 1,350fps or greater velocities......stay closer to 1,200fps or less when using in rifles.
An accidental double charge of 6gr of Unique, which would be 12gr, can create 22,000psi (not cup) which is approx. 28,000cup to 33,000cup.
SMOKELESS POWDER TRANSITION YEARS
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/powders/smokeless-powders-transition-years
In 1895 when Winchester introduced smokeless powder for the 44-40, it specifically named the Winchester 73' on the label.
So that myth is BUSTED!
In the beginning there was slow burning black powder. Then there was a little faster burning (faster than black or at least known to be unstable at times) smokeless powder that specifically replaced black powder. Then there was an improved smokeless powder to be used in black powder rifles and then by 1900, fast burning pistol powders. Also entwined was the newer slower burning rifle powders like SR-80, IMR-1204 and IMR-4227. By the time IMR-4227 was in full swing, as well as 2400, the black powder replacement powders died off leaving the slower burning rifle powders. As years passed these slower burning rifle powders were re-named MAGNUM powders.
ANY MODERN FACTORY AMMUNITION is safe for your 44-40 as long as the rifle is in good sound operating condition. Even Buffalo Bore's "Heavy" 44-40 is safe for it.
With that said, I am still missing a "pressure" link from that time period. My early pre-1884 44-40 cartridge cases produced 14,000psi while the same loads in post-1884 WRA headstamped cases produced 12,000ish psi while the same loads in modern starline brass only produced 8,953psi.
SAAMI didn't set a standard in stone until about 1970 at 12,000cup and by 2015 12,000cup/11,000psi....much lower than original black powder pressures.
Pressure curves or no pressure curves....
Pre-1884 - 14,385psi, thats about 15,000ish cup (all firearms), 1,325fps
Post-1884 - 12,500psi, thats about 13,000ish cup (all firearms), 1,325fps
1895 Smokeless - unknown, safe for the Win. 73' (not for pistols),1,300fps
1900 Smokeless - unknown, safe for ALL FIREARMS, 1,300fps
1903 Smokeless - HV Low Pressures (unknown), Model 92 only, 1,500fps
1910 Smokeless - HV high pressures, 22,000cup, Model 92' and Marlin 88's/94's only, 1,570fps
So why High Velocity Low pressures? During the early 1930's we can see that the powders used during that time included Sharpeshooter. On the back of the can it shows a "44-40 W.C.F. High Velocity" load of 17gr. We have to go look at the handloading data of the time to check the pressures. According to 1937 Sharpe, 17.3gr of Sharpeshooter produced....da da ta da.......14,000cup, maybe 13,000ish psi. Obviously lower than the early 14,000psi black powder loads BUT YET NOT FOR THE 73' OR PISTOLS!!!!
It has also been said that the early smokeless powders, maybe Dupont #2, produced even less pressures than black powder. However, it has also been said that the "powdery" residue could settle into the primer pockets and create higher pressures.
Confused yet?
It all started with the .30-40 cal testings and is extremely related today!
The early smokeless powders were developed using the 30-40 Krag thus the early smokeless powders could be considered .30 cal powders. Many of those .30 cal powders worked well in the ole black powder calibers to include the 44-40 and 45-70.
By the mid 1930's, here were the popular powders;
Black Powder replacements
Dupont #1 - phased out
Dupont #2 - phased out
Sharpshooter - early .30 cal by Laflin & Rand
Sharpshooter, now under Hercules...still a black powder replacement
Lightning, another .30 cal powder also used in the 44-40
SR-80, a "bulky" 'Sporting Rifle-80' powder but not a Bulk powder like Dupont #2
IMR-1204 ("1204") another .30 cal powder to include "small calibers"
IMR-4227, directly replaced 1204 (Today's IMR MAGNUM powder)
2400, designed for the 22 Hornet and 25-20 (Today's Alliant's MAGNUM powder)
Pistol Powders
Unique - Originally a shogun powder adapted to small calibers and as we all know, many calibers
Bullseye - Came from "Infallible" floor sweepings but is/was position sensitive in large cal cases like the 44-40.
With all of that said, I have settle with three loads
Winchester 73' (Group I Rifles)
Slower burning rifle powder, Reloder 7, 43-214A (427098 replica) 1,361fps @ 12,000psi (13,000ish cup). 40 consecutive shots inside 3 5/8" @ 100 yards.
Can be used in revolvers but produce only 700fps due to slow burn rate.
Marlin 1894CB (Group II Rifles)
Slower burning IMR-4227, Winchester JSP, 1,590fps @ 18,000psi (22,000ish cup), 2 1/8" Groups @ 50 yards
Pistols - Colt, Uberti (Consider them in Group I)
Unique
Trailboss
Bullseye
NOTE: Too fast for rifle loads and create too high pressures when trying to achieve 1,350fps or greater velocities......stay closer to 1,200fps or less when using in rifles.
An accidental double charge of 6gr of Unique, which would be 12gr, can create 22,000psi (not cup) which is approx. 28,000cup to 33,000cup.
SMOKELESS POWDER TRANSITION YEARS
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/powders/smokeless-powders-transition-years
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There is a CUP "Correlation" -- though not Equation.
It's a curve fit of otherwise differently-based criteria
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf
And carries with it it's own inherent error limits.
as w/ any such derivation -- use with the understanding of those limits.
It's a curve fit of otherwise differently-based criteria
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf
And carries with it it's own inherent error limits.
as w/ any such derivation -- use with the understanding of those limits.