Will it KB?

V

vertigo7

New member
Today I picked up my first wheelgun, a Taurus 617 .357 magnum with 2" ported barrel (non-titanium, but I'm not complaining). Is it safe to use +P or other high-velocity ammo with it? All I've found in the owner's manual is their suggestion that +P or +P+ ammo may reduce the service life of the revolver, and a statement that using reloads will void my warranty. :: shrug :: I don't think I'll have a need to use hot loads out of such a short barrel, but if I do, I'd rather not have it go ka-boom in my hand. Would one of you more clueful TFL folks help me out?

Thanks,

vertigo7
 
Assuming you use standard factory loads, I very much doubt if it will KB! This is a .357 magnum, and designed for high pressure rounds. Now, if you shoot MANY stout .357 mags (perhaps even +P+s) the Taurus may experience problems (e. g., timing, lock-up, and resulting non-alignment), but I doubt KBs will result.
 
Maybe I missed something, but I thought the terms +P and +P+ were for .38 Special to designate high pressure loadings. +P+ is restriced to police sales (sometimes called Law Enforcement ammo) and is to be fired only in revolvers designed for .357 Magnum. (It's purpose is purely political PR, to avoid issuing that awful .357 Magnum ammo.)

But .357 Magnum +P and +P+ are new ones on me. Those terms would indicate something hotter than .357 and perhaps unsafe in standard .357 revolvers. So what would they be used in?

Jim
 
Vertigo7.....you raise a puzzlement.

In your owners manual, did the warning against +P and +P+ ammunition pertain to your particular model of gun ? Or was it contained in a portion of the manual pertaining to guns in general ?

As Jim Keenan notes, +P and +P+ are terms not usually associated with .357magnum cartridges.

High pressure ammo in any gun will likely cause more rapid wear than standard pressure ammo. Tis a matter of relativity, loose in twenty thousand rounds or loose in fifty thousand rounds. Or one thousand rounds.

Sam
 
Sam and Jim K,

I used the +p term about the .357magnum loads in ignorance of the proper way to describe the ammo, because I couldn't think of any other way to describe what I was thinking. Sorry for the confusion. This is new turf for me.

The warning in the manual appears to be a generic one, as it does not specifically state not to use high velocity / hot rounds. It lists a table of various calibers, bullet weights, and pressures, followed by this warning:

"Plus-" "Plus-P-Plus" or other ultra or high-velocity ammunition generates pressures signifigantly in excess of the pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures may affect the useful life of the firearm or exceed the margin of safety built into many revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS.
Click to expand...

The calibers table seems to be a listing of the loads tested by Taurus that they've established as their warranty limits. Under the listing for .357Magnum, it lists a bullet weight of 158gr and a muzzle velocity of 1450fps. It goes on to say that other loads may or may not work, and to test them carefully before relying on them.

I was checking into a few different ammo brands to decide what my carry round might be, and thought of that warning when I read their specs. Cor-bon shows a 357magnum load of 115gr and 1500fps and MagSafe shows one with 1700fps, and both exceed what's listed on that table. I just wondered if Taurus is trying to suggest I could damage the gun in a short time or with a single round by using something higher than what's on their table. They're probably implying that long-term use is bad, as RWK said. But it's not there in black-and-white and I'm new to this type of gun, so I thought I'd ask before I tried any ammo that could cause me unwanted medical bills when it KB'd my new revolver.

Apologies for the confusion guys.

vertigo7
 
OK, I see what's going on here.

First of all, they're saying not to exceed 1,450fps with a 158grain load. Referring to the ever-handy table of bullet energy published by NAA:

http://www.naaminis.com/energy.html

...we see that a 158 pulling 1,450 delivers about 735 foot/pounds of energy.

So, to get that much energy out of a lighter round, you gotta make it go faster - a 125grain round doesn't hit that same horsepower level until it's doing over 1,600fps.

HOWEVER: there's a separate issue, in which lighter bullets do more harm than heavy ones for the same energy level...because the lighter bullet is moving faster as it hits the constriction at the back of the barrel. So the hottest 125grain factory loads you'll find available are driven at around 1,400/1450fps tops...and that's the Remington I think.

I wouldn't shoot a whole lot of those particular rounds (maybe 12 per range session for the first half-dozen or so sessions so you know what they're like) but they're damned good carry ammo if you can handle the recoil, and are on the high end of what that gun can digest.

What I'd stay away from is the super-hot hunting loads as sold by Cor-Bon and others, featuring 180 and 200 grain solid lead hardcast slugs at some serious velocities. Or the 158 hardcasts at 1,500+ available from smaller ammo houses. The only time you'd consider those is if you head to the woods, need to defend against black bear and you just don't own anything else. Recoil will be pretty wild, but the gun should be able to handle a very small diet of these monsters. Too many, and it won't "blow up", it'll just slowly "stress" the gun (stretch key bits like the frame :().

For practice fodder, both .38Spl and .38Spl+P ammo will put very little stress on a stainless mid-sized .357 such as yours.

If you try out some "full house combat 125grain JHPs" such as the Remington and find the recoil is out past what you want to deal with, no problem, go find some Pro-Load 125grain "Tactical lite" fodder. This stuff is basically somewhere between full .357 and .38+P horsepower levels, with a bigger JHP cavity designed to open at the slightly reduced speed. A lot of people with SP101s and J-frame-sized .357s (smaller than your gun) swear by that fodder as carry ammo.

Glasers won't stress your gun at all, even in .357. Due to their price, you won't be shooting many anyways. I would recommend the "silver nosecone variant" with it's larger shot size, as it'll punch deeper than the "blue tip" small-shot formula. In silver .357, I think these are a damned fine choice. Since the bullet weight is only 80 grains, it can be driven faster than 1,450 and still not come close to the energy ceiling Taurus is recommending. And given that they're not completely solid (compressed lead pellets inside of copper foil) I'd be willing to bet that the "impact stress" at the rear of the barrel will be abnormally low.

I'd use .38+P of some sort for pretty much all of my practice. You want enough recoil that you practice lining up the next shot as you come down from the recoil of your last, but not stress you or the gun too much for comfort.
 
158gr at 1,450 fps is a fairly stiff load.

Generally a lighter bullet at higher velocity could generate the same pressure.

Problem with "generally" is that some loads generate very high pressures without much to show for it in bullet performance. Differences in powder burning rates, flash supressant, filler etc.

You should be just fine with any commercial defensive ammunition. The gun will last longer with the more modest loads.

Catastrophic failure is very very unlikely with commercial ammunition.

Hope this helps.

Get ahold of a good reloading manual, Lyman or whatever, and read up on the relationships between pressure and velocity with different powders and loading densitys. Tis a vast subject, but interesting.

An authoritative classic on the subject would be "Complete Guide to Handloading" by Phillip B. Sharpe.

Sam
 
I'm grateful for all the information everyone has patiently provided. This is why I love TFL! I'll definitely check out the different carry loads suggested, and pick up a couple reloading manuals and try to educate myself on some of the physics.

Thanks,

vertigo7
 
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