"why would an LEO disarm a CCWer ..." AGAIN"

Status
Not open for further replies.
E

Ed Brunner

New member
There are emotions on this side of this subject and I missed the opportunity to post during the emotional time. My main problem with the entire idea is that I DO have the right to keep and bear arms and have been granted various state permits issued after much research and investigation of my whatever.
Simply stated, I am not willing to give up any of my rights to make law enforcement easier or safer.
Looking at it like that, how many of you agree or disagree and why?

------------------
You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
I also missed the chance to post to the thread.

I was very disapointed with both sides who decided to take what could have been an informative interesting discussion and turned it into an ad hominum attack.

look, the LEO's are on our side. I own a gun to stop a BG from taking my life. I consider LEO's to be on my side. It is not thier fault that the laws are written the way they are, it is our fault that the laws are written the way they are. We vote for the politicians who make the Laws. If you want the right to bear arms, then vote and agitate for that right.

If a LEO has stopped you and pulled you out of your vehicle, then you have done something to attract his attention. You would probaly have attracted mine. If you look and act like a regular joe, I find that LEO's do not bother me. I am not bothered becuase I don't do anything illegal. I do not carry illegally, and don't feel the need to obtain a CCW, although I think it is something that should be allowed. Those that are carrying illegally attract a good LEO's attention becuase if you are doing something illegal, you give off signs that LEO's can spot. I want them to spot the BG's who are carrying illegally.

There is an US v. Them mentality on both sides of the coin, which sucks becuase we both want the same thing. To be safe in our homes and streets. The trouble is that LEO's have been attacked from every turn and so they have banded together, much like smokers or say gun-owners. An Example is the LAPD. I live in Southern California and see what the LAPD has done and had done to it. They are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. I must be the only person in Los Angeles who thinks that those cops saved Rodney Kings life. That CHP LEO wanted to shoot him and could have. They don't react during the LA riots becuase they have been handicapped by a balless major. Any way you look at it it must suck to be a LAPD officer.

Yet day after day, thier job function is to deal with a**holes of epic proportions. who is happy to see a cop. No one. Even if you have the BG under control and can hear the sirens coming, this is not going to be your best day. When I occasionally deal with LEO's I am polite, and find that they are usually stunned to have someone be polite to them. Think about a job where you are stunned to be treated politely.

Nope, wouldn't take that job for the world, but I respect those that do. I just wish from time to time that the LEO's I deal with would realize that I am on thier side.

This doesn't mean that every LEO is perfect, there are idiots in all walks of life. But I find that in general Cops want to help people, that is why they became cops. Its just the job hardens them, and if each one of us had to face what they face everyday, I dare any of you to tell me you would not get hardened or get a pack mentality.

I'm Out
 
Much of what you hear and read in the media about what LEO's think is the garbage that the political chiefs and elected officials spue out like a person with a severe case of diarrhea. If you want to know how cops really think, ask the ones who are on the street.
John K

------------------
NRA MEMBER? GREAT, NOW JOIN GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA
 
Ed Brunner:
I will NOT repeat my statements from the prior thread in toto; the thread is still there; my posts are easily accesible to all. I will, however, answer your question.
Yes, I support CCW. I think that it is wonderful that civilians are able to take advantage of the option of defending themselves. After all, we LEO's cannot be everywhere all the time.
That said, the CCW is not some magic shield which prevents an LEO from (temporarily) securing your weapon from you in the course of a contact if that officer feels the need exists.
True, you have a CCW after a background check by your state; in NY, that process is rather cumbersome, often six months long. Still, all that background check does is verify the lack of a criminal record...thats all. Most people who have CCW's tend to be the better class of gun owners, due to the fact that most marginal gunners probably dont care enough to go through the process of applying for the permit. I have non-resident permits for several states other than my own, and I can tell you that the process for applying and receiving these permits varies widely across the country.
Also, I have encountered persons with permits as old as 25 years;anything about that person could have changed in the intervening time, short of a criminal conviction which would have resulted in the loss of the permit
The LEO is NOT depriving you of any rights by temporarily securing your firearm. The Police memorial in D.C. is filled with the names of officers who didn't bother properly checking "ol' Bob" or "Farmer Jim" during a call because they ASSUMED that because they knew that these people, no harm would befall them.
Pittspilot and others:
I too was upset by the tone the previous thread took. I come to this board, as well as others, to share my experiences both as a firearms person and an LEO where appropriate. I try to respect the feelings and rights of others. I do not, however, feel that someone stating that my life is somehow worth less than theirs, on duty or off, is acceptable.
As stated before, I welcome any civilian who wishes to learn more about our job; many agencies including my own have ride-along programs. Take advantage of this opportunity if it is available to you.
 
I have had a leo disarm me twice.Once I was hit by another car.When the leo's came I told them I was armed and had a CCW.I had no problem with being disarmed because they no idea what to expect.
The second time I got a warning ticket.I went through the drill and was disarmed.Again I had no real problem with this.Now comes the crap.Uloaded firearm that was removed from my person(CCW confirmed)was not given back to me.I was told that he was going to place it in the pass seat of my car.He used that time to do a visual search of my car.He didn't even bother not to be obvious about it.Not a damm thing I can do about it.
I have had a fair attude about leo's but that kind of actions by them is changing that
and not for the better I can assure you.

------------------
Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
It is hard to take the fact that whenever a cop pulls you over or whatever, you are in effect under arrest. I know the legal hairs are mighty fine, but even if stopped for a light out or because your vehical matches the vague desription of a get away car you lose your privacy. Your are subjected to questions and scrutiny that no one wants.

I know some of it is "fishing" and some of it is to "verify" information. But it is still degrading. If things are so bad that cops need to disarm people as SOP then the problem isn't the gun or knife is it? [And I am not saying it isn't that bad]
 
Having been raised by a former Virginia Trooper, my feelings on this subject are fairly simple and based on his advice. Cooperate. Meet them half-way, they're doing a job and if you can help in any small way you may get some slack. Don't volunteer to bend over, but at least shut-up and be polite. Let the lawyers do the arguing later. Making them mad is just counterproductive. His final words of advice to me: There are pointy-headed people scattered throughout every line of work. Get over it. John
 
Originally posted by tcsd1236:

I too was upset by the tone the previous thread took. I come to this board, as well as others, to share my experiences both as a firearms person and an LEO where appropriate. I try to respect the feelings and rights of others. I do not, however, feel that someone stating that my life is somehow worth less than theirs, on duty or off, is acceptable.

Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone on both sides of this issue...but didn't tcsd1236 have a $***fit in the other thread, casting aspersions like a 50 caliber belt-fed spewing out its leathal carnage. Now I could be mistaken about that so why don't we all tippy toe back over to that old thread and see what he did say about us civilian slobs and farmer Jim too and don't forget ol Bob. Man, you are so full of yourself that sound reasoning has completely eluded you with your personal attacks and bias...all because you are Mr. John A. Badge and you think you can do no wrong with this vindictive rhetoric. It isn't working for you and if you want to calm down and talk reasonable we will meet you half way. Otherwise you are just blowing off on the defensive and nothing will be gained by either side, or is that what you really want. :rolleyes:

Farmer Jim
Click to expand...
 
Contrary to your post JamesE, I cast NO aspersions on anyone who didn't start it, including yourself.
It is you who is full of yourself, so sure of your position that you ATTACK me. I presented my viewpoint, you attacked me...which is largely why the other thread got shut down. I never referred to ANYONE as a slob.I refuse to fall for your bait tactics in this thread continuation,JamesE. I AM the one talking reasonable.
If you want to make this a personal argument , continue it as e mail. There is no need to fuel the rancor again and get yet another thread shut down.

[This message has been edited by tcsd1236 (edited August 02, 2000).]
 
I have not done enough statistical research to know the answers, but are more people shot by LEO's or is it the other way around?

The truth is that when I encounter people in the course of my daily routines I do not normally disarm them before we do business or converse or whatever.
The only reason that LEO's routinely do this is BECAUSE THEY CAN!
And that is the main reason I am against it.
I'm sure you all have seen the bumper sticker TED KENNEDY'S CAR HAS KILLED MORE PEOPLE THAN MY GUN.
Who is really in more danger?
Do you really want to disarm ALL people in order to feel safe or just the ones you come in contact with?

------------------
You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
When stopped for whatever reason, I keep my hands on the steering wheel or handlebars untill a dialog has been established. Not out of respect for the officer, rather out of discretion. I do not know who he is or his current mental state. I do not want to do anything to spook him.

Had a problem bout twenty five years ago, I placed a call for help, I was injured. State and County arrived bout the same time. State loses it when I couldnt tell him my street address and starts workin my gut over with his baton while his partner watched. County mountie saved my hide. I filed complaint when I got out of the ER; turned out that State man had a reputation of workin over folks.

I have worked with feds, state, county and local. A lot of good folks wearin the badge. Also a lot of macho Rambo types usin the badge as a power trip. I feel that if a good cop is workin with a bad cop and doesn't do anything about the situation, the good cop is just as tainted. If we have ten percent rotten and twenty percent know about the ten percent and do nothing.....then we have in actuality thirty percent that should be in another line of work.

Tis indeed a shame.

Sam
 
tcsd1236:

Hey, unlike you my name is on the post and so is my e-mail. Frankly I don't want you pestering me on my e-mail that's why they make dellete buttons. If you can't meet us half way on this thread I sure as hell don't want to waste time with you on the e-mail because nothing will be accomplished as long as you are so damn bitter at us guys. Too bad I was hoping to see you back off a tad and I for one would be there to do likewise.
But I learned a long time ago that you can only go so far with some people on some issues and then the fur begins to fly. You really feel like flaying my hide don't you.
That's the difference between us I don't feel the same way towards you. Don't believe me do you. You've flayed a lot of folks in this and that other thread, I think before anymore discussion you should apologize to those you have maliciously flamed. You don't have to apologize to me but it would show some character if you did to them. I think you would rather bite the bullet than apologize.
I double dare you to try it and see what happens.

Jim
 
In my experience the individual officers have a lot of leeway in handling an armed citizen.
Personalities are a major factor in how an officer reacts to encountering the unwashed and unannointed in possession of a lethal weapon.

Once, while traveling, I had my car broken into (Grants Pass, Oregon). The officer who responded to my call ran my driver's license and discovered I was CCW. He asked if the thieves had gotten my gun. I replied in the negative. As we left the motel room to inspect the vehicle he asked what I was packing. I said a .44 magnum. He gave me a thumbs up and said, "Right on!"

On the other hand: a neighbor and his brother-in-law were standing on the neighbor's brand-new earthen dam shooting doves over his new stock pond. A Deputy Sheriff from a nearby county come drives onto the property, leaves the gate open, rolls onto the new dam (you don't drive vehicles and recently filled earthen dams), dismounts her unit, draws her piece, covers behind the door and demands that the property owner lay down his scattergun. He refuses and the scene is about to escalate when the brother-in-law, who has layed his gun down, grabs the shotgun away from the neighbor.
The Deputy was there to serve a supeona on the neighbor, as he was a witness to a traffic accident.
The neighbor got bradge number, etc., called Deputy's supervisor. Result: Zip, nada. zero. No apology. No KMA. Nothing.

Individuals and their attitudes make the world go 'round, but the supervisors are responsible for training and policies. A reprimand to the Deputy would have gone a long way in strengthening community relations. Preventing the scene altogether would have been better.

William

[This message has been edited by William R. Wilburn (edited August 02, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by William R. Wilburn (edited August 02, 2000).]
 
TCSD1236 said a couple of things that REALLY bothered me:

You seem to think that the CCW, which is nothing more or less than a document allowing you to carry concealed in public away from your home...

Um, that would be the CONSTITUTION, big boy, not a lousy CCW "permit". Suggest strongly that you read it.

And...

Make no mistakes about it, in any contact with the LEO, it is the officer who dictates how the contact will proceed, not YOU on the grounds that you possess some piece of paper.

Funny, I thought that the item that dictates how those contacts will go is the above-mentioned Constitution (a "piece of paper"). I really think you should read it. Soon.
 
C R Sam It seemms to me a very rare experience to have a LEO take a baton to you for no reason. I also have no reason not to believe you. My feeling on the subject is that I treat all people with respect and would never do anything to deserve a beating by a LEO, as such I would consider him as a mugger and respond as if I was being mugged.Not all people recover from beatings,especially with a baton. It seems that when a LEO commits an illegal act he is no longer a LEO. Also thought it is ones right to resist any illegal act directed at oneself. Remember the key idea here is that I do what the LEO says and act respectful. What do you all say?
 
tcsd1236;
I would think that attude has a lot to do with how a person reacts.Most people including myself do not like to be treated like second class citizens.An officer who treats people like that has a lot of problems as a direct result of his attude.
I am not going to say that you have a lot of problem during the performance of your duties because I don't have that information.Pure speculation says that you do and most of it is due to how you treat people.I,if I where you would maybe rethink my coming on so strong to other people.You made a comment in another post about going for a ride along and that we couldn't judge until we did.I have 2 comments to that,I do not need to ride along to know the difference inbetween right and wrong nor what is legal and elegal.2nd is that put yourself in the shoes of a citizen who you just stoped for going 10 over speed limit.Yes he deserves a ticket but that is all not a lecture or bad treatment.
One of these days you or someone else will be in trouble.It will be officer down and needing help.I hope the citizen who happens along is not one that you treated badly while doing your DUTY.He might look the other way!
This post is directed at one person and not at all leo's so do take offence unless you see yourself in this post.


------------------
Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
Skeeter
I was concussed, bleeding and couple of broken bones. State man ask a couple times what was my address, I couldn't answer, he thought I was bein a smart-ass and went ballistic. I had the good timing to be in a restraunt/bar when a gang war broke out. I dropped the dime to call for help and got caught in the cross fire. Luckily the two sheriff's deputies were a bit more observent and saved my sorry hide. Later they testified against the State guys.

As I stated in my earlier post, I try to not make the cop nervous. But I resent the hell out of the ones who seem to enjoy making others nervous.

sam
 
Have responded to some of the above persons via email with my concerns about their posts, so I will not address them personally in the future..this is for the benefit of the REST of the readers here.
1- Read my first post on this thread; I feel I have nothing to apologize for in any of my posts. I laid it out as I see it. Some people disagree with me. Thats life.
2- I have READ the Constitution. While it may be the basis for the RKBA, in most states, without the CCW, you will not be allowed to carry outside the home. No CCW, big problems. THAT is why I said a CCW is the basis of a persons right...
3- I get along just fine with the public. I don't even write speeders for 10 over except in school zones, and the only lecture I give is a standard speil I can repeat in Court as to what I said, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a near miss with a bus of nuns.....I don't know why others seem to think I am somehow heavy handed with the public. Nothing in any of my posts even hints at that.
4- My email IS on my posts, for those who wish to respond that way. I know, I just checked.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tcsd1236:
I think that it is wonderful that *civilians* are able to take advantage of the option of defending themselves.[/quote]


I would just like to clarify one thing...

LEOs are civilians as well! *Only* military personell are not civilians.

That being said, I am not gonna get involoved in this topic; not that I feel its a bad topic.

BTW-- the two ** were added by me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top