I've been doing some reading on the forum about the relative merits of stainless steel vs. carbon steel, but I have a less technical question. Why do manufacturers limit many models to ss only? S&W, of course, but also Ruger's SP101 line is only available in ss. Has the desirability of stainless really become so prevalent or what?
Why the stainless freeze-out?
- Thread starter Ed Dixon
- Start date
Dfariswheel
New member
Customer demand for a non-rust handgun. Plus, it's usually cheaper to make a stainless gun....Polishing for a blued finish is all hand work, and it costs more.
I stopped being interested in new S&W guns the moment I found out they dropped the blued guns and moved to a stainless lineup.
To me that was the first stupid thing S&W and was an indication of more to come.
Moving to stainless was likely just the same reason why they stopped making revolvers with pinned barrels or recessed chambers, cost cutting.
To me that was the first stupid thing S&W and was an indication of more to come.
Moving to stainless was likely just the same reason why they stopped making revolvers with pinned barrels or recessed chambers, cost cutting.
Ed: My bet is that it's mostly about tooling and set-up costs. Carbon steel production runs would have to be machined on a seperate line, and as a seperate production process from SS units.
Just as one example, the carbon steel barrels would require different 'speeds and feeds' from the SS for rifiling, as well as broaching operations etc.
Any mfgr is going to look at costs from a 'per unit' standpoint but with the goal of producing 100k or 200k unit lots that can actually be sold. The marketing guys know how much something might cost to produce by the unit, when 200,000 units are produced. They will calculate a wholesale price based on the amount of pre tax profit they need to generate.
When it comes to introducing a new product line, say a Blued SP 101 .357 in this case, most mfgrs have sales 'scouts' (for lack of a better term) who canvass wholesalers and even retailers about how many units they might consider buying at $xx. If the demand looks luke-warm, then the actual no kidding sales will likely be lower. Translation: if the pre-production demand weak, then there's a small chance a company will invest tons of resources into a questionable line. The Edsel was a classic case of a company not doing their homework first; Ford lost mucho bucks on that goose-egg.
Also, remember that Ruger primarily uses investment castings. SS castings are going to be produced using diferent methods than carbon steel would be. In fact, carbon steel castings might not pass all the engineered requirements for stress and fracture resistance in a firearm. So Ruger would be back to machining a carbon steel billet; not likely since that's not what they do primarily.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought it might help answer your question better. Botttom line: It's all about the BOTTOM LINE!
John
Just as one example, the carbon steel barrels would require different 'speeds and feeds' from the SS for rifiling, as well as broaching operations etc.
Any mfgr is going to look at costs from a 'per unit' standpoint but with the goal of producing 100k or 200k unit lots that can actually be sold. The marketing guys know how much something might cost to produce by the unit, when 200,000 units are produced. They will calculate a wholesale price based on the amount of pre tax profit they need to generate.
When it comes to introducing a new product line, say a Blued SP 101 .357 in this case, most mfgrs have sales 'scouts' (for lack of a better term) who canvass wholesalers and even retailers about how many units they might consider buying at $xx. If the demand looks luke-warm, then the actual no kidding sales will likely be lower. Translation: if the pre-production demand weak, then there's a small chance a company will invest tons of resources into a questionable line. The Edsel was a classic case of a company not doing their homework first; Ford lost mucho bucks on that goose-egg.
Also, remember that Ruger primarily uses investment castings. SS castings are going to be produced using diferent methods than carbon steel would be. In fact, carbon steel castings might not pass all the engineered requirements for stress and fracture resistance in a firearm. So Ruger would be back to machining a carbon steel billet; not likely since that's not what they do primarily.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought it might help answer your question better. Botttom line: It's all about the BOTTOM LINE!
John
Swamp Yankee
New member
Phideaux's on the right track.
Another issue with bluing and chrome plating is they both generate hazardous waste that is expensive to get rid of. The salts and chemicals used to prepare and treat the surface are only good for so many pieces and then must be replenished or the job looks like crap. The more you do the more you generate, the more it costs. Most laws are written that if a company generates the waste, it is responsible for it's proper disposal, even if it is contracted to another company. Stainless steel gets around most of these issues.
Handling during assembly is another issue. Very easy to damage a blued surface during handling and transport.
That said there is nothing I like better than a beautiful blue finish on a handgun.
Take Care
Another issue with bluing and chrome plating is they both generate hazardous waste that is expensive to get rid of. The salts and chemicals used to prepare and treat the surface are only good for so many pieces and then must be replenished or the job looks like crap. The more you do the more you generate, the more it costs. Most laws are written that if a company generates the waste, it is responsible for it's proper disposal, even if it is contracted to another company. Stainless steel gets around most of these issues.
Handling during assembly is another issue. Very easy to damage a blued surface during handling and transport.
That said there is nothing I like better than a beautiful blue finish on a handgun.
Take Care
Hook_N_Bullet
New member
Please expound on what a "Pinned" barrel is?
Edu-ma-cate me please
Thanks!
Edu-ma-cate me please
Thanks!
Dfariswheel
New member
Everybody pretty well has it. Stainless steel guns cost more for two main reasons:
The raw stainless material itself cost more than carbon steels.
And....
Stainless is a "tougher" metal.....it's harder to machine, so the tooling has to be sharpened and replaced more often.
All this costs more.
Blued guns are being replaced by stainless, since the high polish jobs people expect cost a bundle, due to the hand work involved.
It takes a considerable amount of time to get a hand polisher trained and up to speed. Not everybody can do a good job, and the skill demands a premium salery. At it's height, the men who polished Colt Python's and SAA's had an average of 20 years on the job. At that time, there weren't 100 people in the world capable of doing that level of work, and all of them were already employed a one or another gun company. You don't just hire that kind of talent on the cheap.
For the last 10-20 years S&W and everybody eles's blue jobs have declined. The blue itself is the same, it's the polishing that's suffered.
I think the real reason, is that stainless is just more popular with consumers. I've converted all my handguns to stainless since there is much less a rust problem, and no finish to wear off.
The raw stainless material itself cost more than carbon steels.
And....
Stainless is a "tougher" metal.....it's harder to machine, so the tooling has to be sharpened and replaced more often.
All this costs more.
Blued guns are being replaced by stainless, since the high polish jobs people expect cost a bundle, due to the hand work involved.
It takes a considerable amount of time to get a hand polisher trained and up to speed. Not everybody can do a good job, and the skill demands a premium salery. At it's height, the men who polished Colt Python's and SAA's had an average of 20 years on the job. At that time, there weren't 100 people in the world capable of doing that level of work, and all of them were already employed a one or another gun company. You don't just hire that kind of talent on the cheap.
For the last 10-20 years S&W and everybody eles's blue jobs have declined. The blue itself is the same, it's the polishing that's suffered.
I think the real reason, is that stainless is just more popular with consumers. I've converted all my handguns to stainless since there is much less a rust problem, and no finish to wear off.
ReverendHobo
New member
Yes, the deep-polish blueing is expensive, but there are many attractive and practical (and cheap) finishes for steel guns nowadays that are quite resistant to rust. I am quite happy with a dark, matte finish. Actually, I find even plain parkerizing to be more esthetically pleasing than stainless brushed.
Sales hype..sells stainless.
Very little difference in machining speeds for 4340 (blue) and 410 (stainless, Ruger).
Investment casting of ordinance (medium carbon) steel has been used in high power rifle actions for half a century.
Unless the design of the piece was made with stainless in mind, a stainless piece will have measurably less strength than the same piece made from good grade ordinance steel.
Great for low cost, low maintenance tableware.
Sam
Very little difference in machining speeds for 4340 (blue) and 410 (stainless, Ruger).
Investment casting of ordinance (medium carbon) steel has been used in high power rifle actions for half a century.
Unless the design of the piece was made with stainless in mind, a stainless piece will have measurably less strength than the same piece made from good grade ordinance steel.
Great for low cost, low maintenance tableware.
Sam
Don Mallard
New member
By Golly!
You guys have just covered it all and I just have to say that of all the canned peaches 'I' have tried...I like the ones in heavy syrup the best!
Now then.............
Don Mallard
You guys have just covered it all and I just have to say that of all the canned peaches 'I' have tried...I like the ones in heavy syrup the best!
Now then.............
Don Mallard
Stainless guns seem to hold their value better on the used gun market. When looking up the value of a used gun, one of the factors is "condition". Condition usually means, "how much finish is left". Reblued guns are worth less than original finish guns that retain a good finish. With stainless, finish is less of a concern, and a tarnished finish can be cleaned up with some metal polish.