Why the lack of pistols with a grip safety

D

Doyle

New member
I'm not a huge fan of the 1911 (oh, the blasphemy) - I just never grew to love it when I was in the Navy. However, there is one part of the 1911 that does hold my interest. That is the grip safety.

I know that LOTS of concealed carriers dislike manual safetys on their carry weapon. Others (especially those that carry IWB) like the idea of a safety and just live with the training required to remember to flip it off after pulling the weapon.

My thought is that the 1911-style grip safety would reassure those who don't like having any safety while carrying IWB plus please those who don't want to have to remember to manually flip a safety leaver.

I'm wondering why manufacturers haven't offered this as an option.
 
Springfield has been doing this for quite a while with the XD/XDM/XDS lines with some success. A lot of people buy them for this reason specifically. While I agree that it is a nice peace of mind, it isn't for everyone. After all, series 70 1911s especially should be carried with the safety on because they don't all do so hot when dropped. I think that most anyone that carries a 1911, series 70 or no, carry cocked & locked.

I'm a fan of the trigger safety found on striker fire pistols like the Glock and others of that ilk. The firearm simply won't discharge unless the trigger is depressed. If you're not comfortable with that then you should probably carry with a thumb safety and practice draw/disengage/fire drills to become proficient. Nothing could be worse in a defense situation than forgetting to disengage the safety other than being a horrible shot and hitting everything and anyone that isn't your target.
 
As with any external mechanical safety that I don't care for,I do not like those grip safeties.
To me there just another item that might fail,and keep the handgun from being able to fire when needed.
I have a few handguns that have these grip safeties,but I always wonder if they might have a failure.
 
I don't care for grip safeties. I have a 1930 1911 that has had the grip safety deactivated and I'm thinking of doing the same to the rest of them.
 
Any engineer will tell you, the more moving parts, the higher potential for failure. Some folks like things simple, due to reliability.
 
After all, series 70 1911s especially should be carried with the safety on because they don't all do so hot when dropped. I think that most anyone that carries a 1911, series 70 or no, carry cocked & locked.
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Series 70 1911s don't have firing pin blocks, that's why they can discharge if dropped (though with titanium firing pins those are some long odds). The cocked and locked feature of the 1911 has nothing to do with a lack of confidence with grip safeties. In fact John Moses Browning only added a grip safety as it was a requirement for the US Army (horses were still a thing) so its existence was never meant to change the handling procedure (in fact I think the military standard for carrying then was loaded magazine with empty chamber and hammer down). The XDs/XDMs you mention (which started life as the HS2000) have striker blocks. You could toss them off a ladder and they won't discharge. Glocks have the same feature, as do most modern service weapons going back decades. None of this has to do with the presence or lack of a grip safety.

The only real "need" for a grip safety on the XD series of pistol comes from the fact that the striker, unlike a Glock, is fully cocked at rest. On a Glock the trigger pull finishes cocking the striker. Theoretically even were the firing pin block to fail on a Glock at rest (we're now in odds that even Vegas can't dream of) the striker won't have enough force to detonate the primer. On an XD that wouldn't be the case, but again the odds of a firing pin block failing really make that a non-issue. In fact a number of other pistols (Walther PPQ, HK VP9, etc.) have fully cocked strikers at rest and do not feature a grip safety. The trigger dingus on the majority of striker fired pistols isn't a true safety. It merely prevents the firearm from being discharged in the event the pistol is dropped and momentum would manage to pull the trigger. On a heavy DA trigger or a pistol with a manual safety this isn't a concern, but most striker fired pistols have relatively lighter triggers than DA and often lack a safety. The trigger dingus is so light that the momentum required for that dingus to move out of the way just from gravity over the fall is essentially impossible.
 
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@TunnelRat

I need to educate myself further on 1911s. My interest in them is a recent vex to me.:D

I was aware the series 70 lacked a firing pin block which is why I assumed the grip safety was there. However, as you said the problem was with the lack of the FPB that resulted in discharge of a dropped firearm. The Ruger SR1911 I've been eying is a series 70 and uses a titanium firing pin and the drop test results were met with no discharges on that particular firearm.

So the purpose of the grip safety on 1911s is what precisely as it relates to the time it was in use by the US Army.

I was aware the XDs where striker fire, and like the Glock won't discharge from being dropped.

So essentially I would ask. In this day does the grip safety have a purpose other than nostalgia?
 
I see a fairly major flaw with the "trigger safety" on the Glock. In fact, there was an incident just a few days ago over just that thing. Woman had a Glock in her purse (obviously without a holster) and it went off hitting both her and her male companion. I'm guessing a lipstick or similar object engaged the trigger when the purse moved.

Having a light, short stroke on a trigger with a striker that is already partially cocked means that bumping the trigger can create a ND (and indeed does so frequenly based on some of the incident reports I've seen involving Glocks). Isn't this is a perfect example of how a grip safety would have prevented that ND?
 
I'm wondering why manufacturers haven't offered this as an option.
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Most modern pistols and revolvers do not need them. With the advent of almost all using a firing pin block they will not go off unless the trigger is completely pulled back. I was a fan of the manual safety but that has changed and find myself purchasing pistols with decockers only now. Yes it takes more effort for the longer trigger pull, but that is less effort than taking a pistol off of safety or forgetting that the safety is on.


Jim
 
Having a light, short stroke on a trigger with a striker that is already partially cocked means that bumping the trigger can create a ND (and indeed does so frequenly based on some of the incident reports I've seen involving Glocks). Isn't this is a perfect example of how a grip safety would have prevented that ND?
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Not necessarily. If you have an unholstered gun in a purse with a bunch of other junk, the grip safety could be depressed just as easily as (and simultaneous with) the trigger. Loaded guns, regardless of configuration, should have their triggers covered when carried.
 
Doyle said:
I see a fairly major flaw with the "trigger safety" on the Glock. In fact, there was an incident just a few days ago over just that thing. Woman had a Glock in her purse (obviously without a holster) and it went off hitting both her and her male companion. I'm guessing a lipstick or similar object engaged the trigger when the purse moved.
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That's a complete oversight on safe handling of the firearm. No firearm should be carried this way.

Doyle said:
Having a light, short stroke on a trigger with a striker that is already partially cocked means that bumping the trigger can create a ND (and indeed does so frequenly based on some of the incident reports I've seen involving Glocks). Isn't this is a perfect example of how a grip safety would have prevented that ND?
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Might as well make the extreme argument the gun should be unloaded and a trigger lock put on to prevent ND from the sort of folks that carry this way. Better yet, she should just carry pepper spray.
 
I see a fairly major flaw with the "trigger safety" on the Glock. In fact, there was an incident just a few days ago over just that thing. Woman had a Glock in her purse (obviously without a holster) and it went off hitting both her and her male companion. I'm guessing a lipstick or similar object engaged the trigger when the purse moved.
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How is operator error a design flaw?
 
If memory serves me right, I believe the U.S. Army wanted it on their new service pistol that John M. Browning was designing. If you notice the Browning High Power, of his basic design, and one the most widely used military pistols in history , doesn't have this little feature. It wasn't mandated by the U.S. so it wasn't tacked on.
I had a Star model PS, basically a 1911 without a grip safety and loved it. After it was stolen, I couldn't find another, so upgraded.
I bought a used Colt Gold Cup to use in NRA Bullseye target shooting and the darn grip safety sometimes would not get pressed all the way in , thus spoiling a group, especially in timed and rapid fire. So I committed the ultimate SIN, I drilled a hole through the safety and frame and pinned it in place...no more problems with it after that. Remember this was before the raised pads on the safeties were invented or at least available to guys in my town.
Pinning was a common fix back then, I read about it from Skeeter Skelton, that was the way he carried his when he was in law enforcement.
No safety is foolproof, you have to use the safety between your ears!
Gary
 
If my memory is accurate, Mr. Browning wasn't in favor of the grip safety on his 1911.
The army wanted it included in the design.
Any historians know for sure?
 
So essentially I would ask. In this day does the grip safety have a purpose other than nostalgia?
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IMO, no not really.

Having a light, short stroke on a trigger with a striker that is already partially cocked means that bumping the trigger can create a ND (and indeed does so frequenly based on some of the incident reports I've seen involving Glocks). Isn't this is a perfect example of how a grip safety would have prevented that ND?
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It's a perfect example of why handguns should be in holsters, even pocket holsters if in purses.
 
After all, series 70 1911s especially should be carried with the safety on because they don't all do so hot when dropped.
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Dropping the gun on the muzzle could result in the gun firing because the weight of the firing pin overcomes the resistance of the firing pin spring.
A sailor was killed from a dropped-gun discharge in the '20s or '30s, and the navy investigated how readily a pistol would discharge if dropped, and it was determined that an in-spec pistol would have to drop something like 20 feet before it would fire from a muzzle impact.
That said, I've heard of guns "going off" when dropped while drawing from a holster, which would result in something closer to a three-foot drop, so your mileage may vary.
I was discussing the topic with a fairly well-know gunsmith, and he said when he tried to perform such a test, he could not get the gun to land on the muzzle, which adds dramatically to the odds of a gun firing if dropped.
 
Why the lack of pistols with a grip safety
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Because they are much more likely to prevent the gun from firing when you need to fire it, than to prevent it from firing when you don't want it to fire.

I tolerate one on a 1911, but feel it would be a far better gun without it. I want no part of anything else with one.
 
@runningbear

As with any external mechanical safety that I don't care for, I do not like those grip safeties.
To me there just another item that might fail, and keep the handgun from being able to fire when needed.
I have a few handguns that have these grip safeties, but I always wonder if they might have a failure.
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IIRC, a grip safety was required on the 1911 before the Army would adopt it, probably for the cavalry in a scarcely mechanized Army.

At any rate, what's to fail on a 1911 grip safety where the pistol will not fire? It is arguably the loosest fitting part on a 1911, pivots only on the thumb safety pin, is sprung with the longest (and weakest) leg of the 3-fingered sear spring, and just the slightest pressure will lift it less than 1/16th" to unblock the trigger bow. Some folks pin it down so it will not rattle. I would worry more about the firing pin block (a "safety" that I do not like) on a series 80 pistol when, if installed incorrectly (purposely or not), can lock the firing pin in a forward protruding position from the breech face and can create an unwanted (and a probably "exciting", extremely dangerous, and adrenaline-filled) moment when it goes to full-auto when the slide is moved into battery.

Unless you are using a very unorthodox hold on the grip, I can't envision how it could fail. If it does, one has other problems with the pistol.

Just asking: are you confusing it with a magazine safety?
 
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