Why so much empty space?

P

Prof Young

New member
Loaders:
Was loading some 357 with titegroup yesterday. As usual the powder takes up a fraction of the space in the case. I've always assumed that disparity is because the original load was developed with black powder, or at least an older powder that took up a lot more room and it's never been convenient to change over to shorter brass.

Is that correct or is there some other reason that there is so much empty space in there?

Life is good.

Prof Young
 
IIRC, the 38 Special was developed with the idea it would be a black powder cartridge but it was late enough to the game that no manufacturer ever produced black powder 38 Special ammunition. The 357 case was made longer than the 38 Special just to keep people from chambering the higher pressure loads in light 38 Special guns by accident. It was not because more room was needed, at least, not in the 1930s when it was birthed.

Today, with a much wider variety of slower powders available than were available when the 357 was developed, people are able to take advantage of the larger case capacity for higher power loads, as with 296/H110 which pretty much fills the case. This is why the 357 Maximum was developed with an even longer case, though it never became very widely popular and was dropped from the SAAMI maintained standard list in 2015.
 
TG in my 357 running 158gr whatever bullets feels like a 22 out of my rifle. Such a soft load. Great for kids to learn to shoot. For stouter loads I run 2400, H110 and Bluedot when I can find it. Even Bullseye runs pretty good in the Henry 357
 
IIRC, the 38 Special was developed with the idea it would be a black powder cartridge but it was late enough to the game that no manufacturer ever produced black powder 38 Special ammunition.
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You're pretty close. There was at least one black powder factory loaded .38 Special.

introduced with the 1902 S&W M&P model, the .38 Special was intended as a more powerful replacement for the .38 Long Colt. Essentially it fired the same weight bullet about 100fps faster. The cases are essentially the same head size (.38 colt rim is slightly smaller) the Special case is 0.13 longer than the Colt case.

Winchester loaded the .38 Special with smokeless and also had a black powder load listed in their 1916 catalogue. Seems like while they did make it, it wasn't "pushed" the way the smokeless loads were. In that catalogue, they have a picture of the round and list several smokeless loads under it. But, on a different page, listed under "Black Powder Pistol Rounds" (with no picture, just a list) they do list a black powder .38 Special load, 21gr of powder with a 158gr "ball" bullet.

Additionally in that era, smokeless powder for reloading wasn't very common and there were a number of people who would shoot factory (smokeless) and then reload with black powder, because that's what they had.

The large "empty" space in the case today is a result of better, newer powder not taking as much room to produce the desired velocity.

As to why they never went to a shorter case when newer powder removed the need for as much space, why bother??

My guess would be that the cost of creating a shorter "more efficient" case simply wasn't justified. What would you get? A tiny saving in brass cost for each individual case, vs the cost of a production line and distribution and marketing for the shorter case, AND the possibility that a shorter case would fit in .38 Long Colt guns where it didn't belong.

Simply put, the need for "efficiency" wasn't there in those days, and the .38 Special wasn't broke, so there was no need to "fix" it.

some cartridges were factory loaded with black powder all the way up to the start of WWII, but when civilian ammo production resumed after the war, everything was smokeless.
 
I wish they would make a .38 short. Could easily match or surpass .38sp performance in a more compact package. A revolver with a slightly longer barrel, shorter cylinder and frame, with more power in a nicely concealable size would be a win win. A shorter ejector rod would fully eject brass better. Basically a 9mm size rimmed case would be ideal for self defense. But I suppose it’s all about semi automatics these days, not much innovation in revolver ammo over the last 40-50 years, other than the bigger is better stuff for all those impending bear attacks.
 
jetinteriorguy said:
I wish they would make a .38 short. Could easily match or surpass .38sp performance in a more compact package. A revolver with a slightly longer barrel, shorter cylinder and frame, with more power in a nicely concealable size would be a win win. A shorter ejector rod would fully eject brass better. Basically a 9mm size rimmed case would be ideal for self defense. But I suppose it’s all about semi automatics these days, not much innovation in revolver ammo over the last 40-50 years, other than the bigger is better stuff for all those impending bear attacks.
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The 38 Short Colt already exists. While it is a low pressure round, some competitors are loading it to 9mm ballistics to make Minor power factor.
 
Since I'd remembered the black powder production incorrectly, I went back and looked at Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers. He lists quite an array of long-defunct cartridges, some of which have made a comeback with C.A.S.S. There are all manner of 38's in it. But the .38 Long Colt that the Special was intended to supplant is probably a good candidate for what Jetinteriorguy is suggesting. The original pressures are inadequate, but with Starline brass and a strong gun, it could probably be loaded to 357 pressures and outperform the Special standard loads.
 
A 38 Short Colt loaded to 9mm pressures will exceed the 38 Special.

A 9mm fired in a revolver exceeds the power of a 38 Special by about 100 ft lbs of energy (on average). That's what I get when firing both rounds from my Ruger Blackhawk 6.5" with a conversion cylinder.

And the short case of the 38 Short Colt makes ejection much more reliable than the 38 Long Colt or 38 Special.
 
There was a short-lived Federal 9mm rimmed cartridge that was an ideal revolver cartridge except for just one thing. It would chamber in old .38 S&W revolvers. :eek: Imagine shooting a 9mm Luger cartridge in a late 1800's top break revolver.
 
The OP is talking about his .357 Magnum, never factory loaded with black. IIRC, when Wesson developed the .357 he used 2400 powder, a slower, bulkier propellant than many that we use today. Too, the .357 had to be longer than the low-pressured .38 Special to prevent the former from chambering in a weak revolver. So those are two reasons for the large case.

Tightgroup is not a full power powder for this cartridge, these faster powders often used today don’t take up as much space in the case; still, it’s less of a problem than in the .45 LC...



.
 
what would you really gain shooting a short case (say approx 9mm Luger length) if you scaled the revolve frame for that? About a 1/4" or so reduction of the frame LENGTH??

how does that help? For concealability issues, the bulk of a revolver is the cylinder and the grips. The cylinder stays the same width (unless you opt for a 5 shot design) the grips are the same, so all you gain is a tiny reduction in total length, which is not a serious concern that I can see.

Also, as mentioned, there is no practical way to make a "straight" .38 cal round in 9mm Luger length that WON'T fit in old weak break top (or even solid frame) guns made for the .38 Long Colt OR the .38 S&W.

Perhaps if you put a nice thick belt on the new "short" case it might not chamber in the old guns and a belt AND a rim?? Might as well give it suspenders, too...:rolleyes:
 
44 AMP said:
what would you really gain shooting a short case (say approx 9mm Luger length) if you scaled the revolve frame for that? About a 1/4" or so reduction of the frame LENGTH??

how does that help? For concealability issues, the bulk of a revolver is the cylinder and the grips. The cylinder stays the same width (unless you opt for a 5 shot design) the grips are the same, so all you gain is a tiny reduction in total length, which is not a serious concern that I can see.

Also, as mentioned, there is no practical way to make a "straight" .38 cal round in 9mm Luger length that WON'T fit in old weak break top (or even solid frame) guns made for the .38 Long Colt OR the .38 S&W.

Perhaps if you put a nice thick belt on the new "short" case it might not chamber in the old guns and a belt AND a rim?? Might as well give it suspenders, too...:rolleyes:
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All good points. I had forgotten about the .38 Short already existing, oh well so much for random thoughts. Too much time on my hands and not enough shooting.
 
There are a lot of 5 shot revolvers out there, so there is no objection to that as a savings on cylinder diameter.
An I frame Smith is a small gun vs even a J frame. A tool steel Terrier in .38 S&W +P would be enough more compact to sell to the dedicated revolver shooter who doesn't just move to a plastic automatic.
But what to do about the Old Gun Problem? Make it a .365, sort of a 9mm Makarov Rimmed +P.
 
The .357 case was not designed for .38 Special target loads. Load it to .357 specs with 296 or 2400 and you don't have all that empty space.
 
Jim Watson said:
There are a lot of 5 shot revolvers out there, so there is no objection to that as a savings on cylinder diameter.
An I frame Smith is a small gun vs even a J frame. A tool steel Terrier in .38 S&W +P would be enough more compact to sell to the dedicated revolver shooter who doesn't just move to a plastic automatic.
But what to do about the Old Gun Problem? Make it a .365, sort of a 9mm Makarov Rimmed +P.
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Find a used Charter Arms Pitbull and some 9x19R brass (does Starline make that?) and roll your own. Use 9mm Luger load data.
 
jetinteriorguy said:
I wish they would make a .38 short. Could easily match or surpass .38sp performance in a more compact package. A revolver with a slightly longer barrel, shorter cylinder and frame, with more power in a nicely concealable size would be a win win. A shorter ejector rod would fully eject brass better. Basically a 9mm size rimmed case would be ideal for self defense. But I suppose it’s all about semi automatics these days, not much innovation in revolver ammo over the last 40-50 years, other than the bigger is better stuff for all those impending bear attacks.
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I load 38 short colt to match 38 special +p velocities. ES is lower, and ejection and reloads are faster. I only do this in 357 guns since pressures are on par with 9mm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
One 'good' thing about all that empty space, is you have a much larger range of powders you can use... Fill up with Black Powder, Trail Boss, and in the Magnums use H110, 2400, etc. Or go with a little Red Dot or Bullseye for plinking. You can't do that with a 'short' cases which have very little volume under the bullet.
 
You nailed it ... a lot of american revolver rounds were taken from cartridges originally loaded with black powder ...hence the huge cases .
Look at the 9mm Luger , smokeless powder developed from the git go ...see how small the case is !
Gary
 
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