Why should I buy a 9mm?

robins

New member
I've always had .45's, a .40, and now a .357 SIG, but lately I've been wondering whether I should get a 9mm. The bad press the 9 has gotten has kept me from it so far. What do you think - should I or shouldn't I and why?

If I do, I've narrowed it down to a Glock 17, a SIG 226 or a Beretta 92 FS (I live full sized pistols best). HK fans - don't worry - I've got a USP 45c, but like the aforementioned 3 pistols better in 9mm.
 
People are going out of 9mmPARA here to same cal in magnum loadings(X20 and X21mm) and .40S&W mainly, but that could be a local thing...9mm is still a (aging) but fine calibre.

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***Big Bunny***
 
Robins, buy the 9mm because it is cheap to feed compared to your other pistols. I can probably load 50 9mms for about $3.50 maximum. Of the choices you mentioned I like the Glock 17 best after shooting ShallCarry's. The others stike me as too large. I should also say I like the Glock 19 more than the pistols you mention. Regards, Richard.
 
Hello. With proper ammunition, the 9x19mm can be an effective defensive round and there's a large selection of available handguns chambered for it such that you should be able to find one you like. Bulk ammo for non-reloaders can be purchased more cheaply than some of the heavier calibers and the weapon's a peach to shoot and enjoy. With some loads, accuracy can be better than most expect. Certainly one should have a 9mm in the collection, but not necessarily to the exclusion of .45s, and other calibers. Best.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Advocating the 9x19mm by Todd Louis Green

Probably no other handgun cartridge has been so misunderstood and maligned as the 9x19 (also called 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, or just 9mm). But in a world where new calibers seem to go in and out of vogue almost daily (10mm, .40S&W, 357SIG, 400CorBon, what's next?), the venerable 9mm still seems to be a popular choice for shooters. Why?

The reasons are legion and depend, to a great extent, on each individual asking the question. However, the basics can all be boiled down to what I call the Three E's of Ease of Use, Economics, and Effectiveness. <OL TYPE=1><LI> Ease of Use - Compared to most other defensive calibers, the 9mm has relatively little recoil and muzzle flip. This affects both new shooters and more experienced handgunners. Beginners frequently have problems taming recoil. This can lead to bad habits such as flinching, which makes accuracy almost impossible to achieve. More importantly, a shooter who is recoil sensitive might get discouraged trying to learn with more punishing rounds and give up shooting altogether. With the light recoil of the 9mm, inexperienced shooters can learn the basics of sight picture, trigger control, etc., without being battered by the gun.

Of course, with experience, most shooters learn to handle recoil properly and can move on to other calibers if they choose. However, recoil force has a direct impact on things like muzzle flip, which in turn affect how quickly and accurately a person can make follow-up shots. This shouldn't surprise anyone. The more the muzzle flips up, the more time and effort it takes to bring it back down and on target. Time equals marksmanship, and the more time you have to take your aimed shot, the more accurate you will be. Therefore, the 9x19 allows a shooter of any given skill level to be faster and more accurate when firing multiple rounds.

Most tactical handgun trainers agree that the ability to put multiple rounds downrange into a target is critical for self-defense. The obvious conclusion, then, is that the 9mm gives the shooter an edge when performing double taps (two rapid shots to Center of Mass, or "COM") and similar defensive techniques.

<LI> Economics - Nine millimeter ammunition is just plain cheap. Places like Natchez and Cascade regularly have sales at around $7/box of 50. You can find even better prices if you find a reputable commercial reloader or quality surplus ammo at gun shops and gun shows. In fact, 9x19 ammo is so cheap that it's almost a waste of time and effort to reload for it. By comparison, most other defensive ammo calibers are significantly more expensive. Discussing just practice ammo (like FMJ or Blazer), the 9mm is usually two to four dollars cheaper per box than comparable .40S&W and .45ACP ammo; 10mm and 357SIG ammunition can be twice as expensive! Of course, shooters of these other calibers can save money by reloading, but that requires (1) an outlay of substantial funds to buy the reloading equipment and (2) time and effort spent sorting brass and loading ammunition. Many shooters would rather not be bothered with all of that, myself included.

Also, in my experience, great deals (like specials, sales, etc.) on 9mm ammo are much more common than for other calibers. Surplus NATO 9mm "ball" ammo makes an excellent training/practice round.

Less expensive ammunition, of course, means more ammunition. Whether you want to spend $10 or $100 or $1000 each month practicing, you'll get more for your money with 9mm. More ammo means more practice, and more practice means greater skill.

In a defensive shooting situation, shot placement is much more important than tiny differences in so-called "stopping power." The only way to improve shot placement is by practicing. By switching to 9mm from .40S&W or .45ACP, you can practice half again as much for the same cost.

When considered along with the 9mm's inherently reduced recoil, the economic efficiency of shooting 9mm means that you get better, faster, cheaper.

<LI> Effectiveness - This is the big one, of course. Many of the "big names" in the gunzine world disparage the 9mm right and left because, they claim, it lacks "knockdown power" or "stopping power" or whatever they're calling it this month. I won't lie to you. They're right. The average 9mm load probably isn't as effective as a defensive round as the average .40S&W, .45ACP, 357SIG, or 10mm round.

Whoa, hold on a minute! Did he just say the 9mm isn't as good as those others?

No. I said that the average load wasn't as good. When you start to look at the best loads in each caliber, you begin to see that they're almost identical in terminal performance (ability to penetrate, expand, and otherwise wound a violent threat).

The 9mm versions on most "premium" loads are very close and sometimes superior to the .40S&W and .45ACP versions. It's all about bullet design, not bullet weight or velocity.

The problem is that while there are few "bad" loads in the other calibers, there are tons of "bad" 9mm defensive choices out there. Many rounds either fail to expand or fail to penetrate, or both. Most of the super-fast stuff from places like Corbon and Triton simply fragments, creating a shallow wound.

So for 9mm, load selection becomes paramount. But once you choose a good load, it works just like a good load in .40S&W, .45ACP, or any of those other calibers. Sure, it's not as heavy as the heavy bullets, and it's not as fast as the fastest bullets. But if it penetrates the same, expands the same, and disrupts tissue the same, who cares? All else being equal, I'd prefer a cheap, easy to control gun rather than one that makes me work harder and spend more money to get the same results. </OL> The 9x19 certainly isn't the choice for everyone. Plenty of people are very hardware dependent or simply lack confidence in the 9mm because of anecdotes and the performance of some of the "bad" ammo discussed above. That's fine. Those people are certainly free to use bigger guns which generate more recoil, which they cannot afford to practice with as often, just to have the same terminal performance ("stopping power") as my wimpy little 9mm. Oddly enough, I haven't found a single person so far who is so unimpressed with the stopping power of a 9mm that he is willing to stand downrange and catch one fired out of my Beretta.

Copyright © 1998-2000 Todd Louis Green or their respective owners. All rights reserved.[/quote]

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited June 05, 2000).]
 
Of the three guns you mention, you mention all of the standard (ie, historically best and most popular) full sized 9mm guns. Personally, I have a stainless Beretta (in 9mm), a 229 (in .40) and a G23 (also .40). I love them all, and you can't go wrong with any of them.

One little bonus with the Beretta is that you can find new or almost new hi-caps for 25-40 dollars each, while the sig hi caps run in the 50-70 dollar range and the Glock in the 80-100 range.
 
IMHO, the 9mm gets bad press because the press sells more guns in other loadings.

If we were all just happy with our 9mm;s, then how would they sell so many more guns and ammo?


All calibers and loads fail, all have horror stories, I have seen even the .45 fail after a mag full of ammo was unloaded into a sober perp at point blank range.

The .40, in equivalent loads (say, 124gr +P 9mm compared to 155gr .40) has a "whopping" 40 more foot pounds of energy, and penetrates the same, and makes a 1 millimeter larger hole. I cannot fathom how that can make all the difference in stopping power like some people would have us believe.

Street reports have plenty of successes and plenty of failures for both. And, even after all of this hoopla, the 9mm still remains to be the most popular police cartridge and a multitude of agencies have no plans to switch because it work just great. Furthermore, many of the agencies that have switched to .40, switched because they traded in their 9mm hi-caps and got free .40 caliber guns in trade. It was not a trade up because the 9mm was failing, it was a trade because they wanted free guns, and there is a large market for hi-cap mags.

I feel plenty well armed with a 9mm +P in a good hollowpoint.
 
It is the most popular caliber in the world. Ammuntion is cheap, and it is a great stepping stone to larger caliber handguns. When I am having trouble with mechanics, I usually go back to the 9mm as it offers enough minimal recoil and size wise is the same size as my larger caliber weapons so I get the same feel for the weapon. Short of buying .22 conversions, it works best for me.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red Bull:
I have seen even the .45 fail after a mag full of ammo was unloaded into a sober perp at point blank range.[/quote]

HUH? What, Did he shoot the guy 8 times in the foot?
 
If you are buying a 9mm just to have it, why not go with one of the best of the breed--a Browning Hi-Power?

I've read and re-read a lot of the mortality data on 9mm vs. .45s and am still scratching my head. It seems logical just by looking at bullet size and weight that a .45 should have more stopping power. But, the real variable is shot placement. One of the problems is that many handgunners own and shoot several guns regularly, so we don't develop an instinctive feel for just one gun. Under stress that instinctive feel (the gun as an extension of you) goes a long way toward speed and shot placement.
 
People have the .45 so hyped you can't even believe it. eh ;)

It is not the only .45 failure I have seen, but probably the most dramatic.

It was a carjacking. The victim had a 1911 Gov't model. The Carjacker came up to the driver's door and attacked the victim. The victim dumped the mag into the perp at point blank range. The perp was seemingly annoyed. Hits were all over, torso, thighs, everywhere. Ambulance was called. Perp sat down and waited patiently for the ambulance. Ambulance picked up perp, who was alert and chatted all the way to the ER. He was no more than annoyed at being riddled with .45's. He, of course, lived. He was NOT on any apparent drugs. He was in pain, of course, but hardly more than annoyed at being shot. Certainly not the devastation you would hope for.

All the defensive bullets perform about the same in the end. Nothing makes up for placement and a little luck.
 
I guess my question would be "why not have a 9mm"?. They are probably the cheapest centerfire you can shoot. I find they're about 1/2 the price to shoot as a 45acp. I keep my 45 for my house gun, and use my 9s for fun. I shoot a P89, and a P90 Ruger. They feel the same, have the same sights, same grips etc. Even though I shoot the P89 the most, the 45 feels just like it when I pick it up. Anyway, it works for me.

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Good shootin to ya
Plateshooter
 
All of my handguns are 9mm. I have both HK's and Sigs. I looked, listened and read quite a while before deciding on the caliber of these guns and even to day, years later I do not regret my decisions at all.

My wife and I carry 9mm's on a daily basis, with complete confidence. A good premium 9mm cartridge is a very effective defensive load. After all, there's an awful lot of dead people with 9mm slugs in their corpse.

Out of your "narrowed down" chioces - go for the Sig 226. Magnificent gun with available highcaps.

CMOS

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NRA? Good. Now join the GOA!
 
Very well said on both counts Red Bull!

robins,I prefer the 9mm in a compact platform.My G26/19 both come to mind.Adequate power in an accurate,controllable easy to conceal package.

My favorite loads,124+p Gold Dot/Golden Sabre.Select a good pistol w/ a load that feeds reliably in it,and feel well armed.Forget the rest of the junk you've heard.

Stay safe...long shot!
 
Every gunowner should own firearms in 5.56mm and 9mm because they are the current military calibers. And, as a friend of mine likes to say: As long as there is a military, there will be military trucks. And as long as there are military trucks, things will be "falling off the back" of them.

Something to keep in mind in this anti-gun, pro-ban time.

Ken Strayhorn
Hillsborough NC
 
Cheap to shoot and a blast for plinking!

Can always find some 9mm ammo too.

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The Seattle SharpShooter - TFL/GT/UGW/PCT/KTOG
 
Yeah, the ammo is inexpensive and they are easy to shoot but I for one never feel one hundred percent protected with a 9mm on the street and surely not in the home with their propensity to overpenetrate. I will assure you that if we study the actual numbers, I am inclined to believe there are far more cases of the bad guy walking away from multiple 9mm wounds than from multiple .45ACP wounds.

Ask yourself this? If the 9mm is so great, why are so many departments getting away from it when they can? Why do tactical units be they LEO or Military almost invaribly choose a .40S&W or .45ACP when the option exists?

Furthermore, is it worth the worry of contending with the hi-cap mag rat-race or the concerns generated over the damage that the high pressure loads do to most guns? In fact virtually all of the decent loads are in the +P or +P+ category meaning a shortened life expectancy on most 9mm pistols if you practice with the load you carry which is the prudent thing to do.

You need to know that until recently, I was a diehard fan of the 9mm. A Police Officer in a large metro area in the Southwest advised me to rethink this proclivity based upon this person's experience with the 9mm in real-life situations not on the data put out by those who play with goats, jello and polymer gels.

I still like to shoot the nine and I always look good at the range when punching paper but I need more than this for peace of mind.

Fireproof gear on, extinguishers checked and smoke detectors activated: Let the flames begin! ;)

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
robins
If you don't have a 9mm, what other reason do you need? :)

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"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
Will Beararms:


" I will assure you that if we study the actual numbers, I am inclined to believe there are far more cases of the bad guy walking away from multiple 9mm wounds than from multiple .45ACP wounds."


Come on, that is a simple one ;) How many agencies do you know that use .45's? (Be honest now, this is not a trick question)
Now, how many that have been using 9mm for a decade or so?
The 9mm is the most popular cartridge in the world.
Believe it or not, the .45 is very unpopular in real shootings. There are VERY few real shootings with the .45.

There are at least 10 or 20 (or more) shootings with a 9mm for every one shooting with a .45.

So....that tells you why there are more failures with the 9mm.
If the .45 were used more, there would be more failures withthe .45!!! They all fail a percentage of the time! The 9mm fails more because it is used far and wide more often than all other calibers combined.
I wager that if you gathered all the shootings you could find, that there would be an equal percentage of failures for them all, because they all fail. In fact, Marshal and Sanow (no, I don't buy their data %100) already did this kind of research and found that all the rounds (9mm on up) do indeed fail about the same percentage of the time!
There has never ever been any complete study that shows the contrary!




"Ask yourself this? If the 9mm is so great, why are so many departments getting away from it when they can?"


I already explained above. Glock, Sig and others practically bribe law enforcement agencies to switch from 9mm to .40/357. It is good business. Here is why:

First, Glock, for example (and Sig) make an offer to Police agencies that if the agencies trade in their old 9mm's with the hi-cap pre-ban mags, then Glock will sell the agencies brand a new .40 caliber replacement gun for liike $50 a piece!
Why?
Because then Glock refinishes the 9mm guns, and sells them with the pre-ban hi-cap mags for almost the same price as a new gun! (Look in any gun store or catalog and you will find the Police trade-ins - used refurbished Glocks with pre-ban hi-cap mags).
Everyone wins (except us) because of Clinton! The cops get new guns for practically free, and Glock gets to make money off of used guns, and we get to buy pre-ban hi-cap magazines from the cops! It is ingenius business!

Not only that, but Glock, (for instance), gets a double-wammy benefit for their efforts because Glock depends on people buying new calibers for their future sales. And here is how this deal helps them in that regard:

You see, every person had a Glock 9mm at first. A Glock 9mm will last your entire life. Glock wants you to buy more guns. So, they come out with the .40 (before anyone else no less). Then, they practically bribe the cops to carry the .40 caliber so that we all see cops carrying .40 caliber guns! So now, we are here arguing about how "cops carrry .40 caliber guns, so they must be better". Now, Glock makes more money because we all retire our 9mm Glocks and go buy .40 caliber Glocks to keep up with the Jones'! Glock wins again!!! Good business!

Gun ragazines sell because they can talk about how great the "new" .40 is. Guns sell because we all need .40 calibers like the cops have. Everyone wins, expect for us because we get snowballed into buying new guns and lots more ammo.
Glock is not alone in this, Sig is doing it too, among others.

As I said before, it would take a lot of convincing to make me believe that 40 more foot pounds of kinetic energy, and 1mm of bullet diameter make all the difference in the world when comparing a +p 9mm to a .40 on the street.
There are plenty of cops that stand by the 9mm and feel that it is outstanding. The 9mm is still by far the most popular cartridge for law enforcement and military and many cops have no desire or need to switch because the 9mm is working great for them on the street...about as well as anything else they have used.


" Why do tactical units be they LEO or Military almost invaribly choose a .40S&W or .45ACP when the option exists?"

Cops read magazines too. They know about one third what we do about balliastics on average. Do not think for a second that they are immune from the hype.

I have a .45 on my hip right now, I love the .45. But, I really don't think it is much, if at all, better than a good 9mm.

I would challange anyone to prove me wrong with even one good study on the matter. Every complete scientific study comes to the same conclusion: that they all work about the same in the end.
Prove me wrong with some real evidence. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong, I have no axe to grind. :)





[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited June 06, 2000).]
 
Well said Red Bull. I'll second your reasoning plus the 9mm and the 357 Sig are the top two as far reliable feeding is concerned IMHO due to their configuration.
Give me a consistendly reliable piece, top quality ammo then the results depend upon me as far as speed of presentation and location are concerned. Caliber, weight, fps, etc. become secondary.

RKBA!
 
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