Why should I be excited about "project exile" and clones?

J

Jordan

New member
Maybe this subject has been beaten to death here and I just missed it.

A couple of things have brought it to my attention recently though. Most notably a publication out of CA (CPRA? newsletter) and a NRA survey that came in the mail. They list off a number of pending laws that they support that are "tough on illegal gun owners" etc, etc. HELLO?

Many of us are disobeying gun laws on a daily basis and it doesn't take a crystal ball to see that those who aren't yet, will be soon as the noose draws tighter.

Why would you actively campaign to put laws on the books that could so easily be interpreted to screw us.. the good guys.

We are the "criminals". Or at least have the foresight to see that you will be soon (unless you intend to completely roll over).

Imagine sitting in a court room listening to the charges against you and, lo-and-behold, "that sounds familiar! Oh yeah, I helped get this law passed."

Let's not help them construct the gallows that will hang us.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jordan:
Maybe this subject has been beaten to death here and I just missed it.

A couple of things have brought it to my attention recently though. Most notably a publication out of CA (CPRA? newsletter) and a NRA survey that came in the mail. They list off a number of pending laws that they support that are "tough on illegal gun owners" etc, etc. HELLO?

Many of us are disobeying gun laws on a daily basis and it doesn't take a crystal ball to see that those who aren't yet, will be soon as the noose draws tighter.

Why would you actively campaign to put laws on the books that could so easily be interpreted to screw us.. the good guys.

We are the "criminals". Or at least have the foresight to see that you will be soon (unless you intend to completely roll over).

Imagine sitting in a court room listening to the charges against you and, lo-and-behold, "that sounds familiar! Oh yeah, I helped get this law passed."

Let's not help them construct the gallows that will hang us.[/quote]

Jordan,

Your post is right on the mark, but dont expect most of the readers here to care very much.

Most of these gun owners dont live in the PRK or a state like it......yet :(

Many more are law-enforcement officers who would have no trouble obtaining a permit regardless of where they live, while having no problem arresting the new class of formerly honest gun owners, now "criminals" that the country, with the help of the NRA, is presently in the process of creating.

Yes, it seems that many of these people equate a CCW permit as some token of a benificent government, a poor substitute for the rights we are granted by God.

No, they are quite comfortable sitting in front of the sreeen calling people who speak out as "kooks" and "trolls", while listening to Rush bragging about how Bush and the sell-us-out NRA will save us all from the liberals.

Baloney!

---

Free _and_ packing in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia, Vermont style ;q

RKBA Forever!
 
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I have to admit ... I'm getting a little confused on this point.

Seems to me, this is a 'good' idea gone bad ... as predicted by Neal Knox.

As I recall, the initial concept was clear ... if you were a felon caught with a firearm, you'd be busted on federal charges and spend serious time in prison. I believe that was the initial concept - take firearms out of the hands of felons.

It has now been twisted into 'gun crimes' ... an altogether broader concept. And, much more problematic.

So, how has this occurred? Has the NRA been an unwitting (or 'witting') dupe in this process? Or, have police chiefs and anti-self defense politicians co-opted this process? To be frank, I don't know.

Curious to see what others think. And, I hope to discuss this with Neal Knox in VA at the Gun Rights Policy Conference (see www.saf.org ).

Live and let live. Regards from AZ
 
Randy: thanks for you supportive post. It's people like you who refresh my dwindling faith in the movement.

Jeff: I believe you are correct(felons w/guns seriously busted). That was the original and pure intent but as you say... I think it spun off into some look alike laws and generally went sour from there.

My point though is to think long and hard how much I even like the original intent of "exile"---

You see the day I am discovered to be carrying without a permission slip I too will be a felon. It could happen to me any day.
I don't intend to live gunless after becoming a CCF (concealed carry felon) so I don't want some "zero tolerance", XX years _minimum_ jail term breathing down my neck.

They are redefining the criminal class... the "felon" that gets the exile hammer might be you.
In other words: Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

[This message has been edited by Jordan (edited August 22, 2000).]
 
Very good - though provoking - post(s)!

I'm in Texas, have my CHL and have studied/kept up with the law - so I know I'm
not illegally carrying a firearm. My CHL instructor told us "if we can't keep the guns
out of the schools we are all going to lose our guns". Texas adopted a "project exile"
program/law much like the one Richmond Virginia used to help in their gang
problems. From these points I thought project exile type programs were a good
thing.

I have to admit, I never thought about the Republik of Kalifornia (and other fascist
states) using this type law to round up you law-abiding-but-refuse-to-regester guys.

Put me in the category of previously uninformed -- but know better now.
 
Due to the Haynes decision, a convicted felon can not be prosecuted under Brady, as having to fill out the yeller form would be self incrimination under the 5th. That is why there are so few prosecutions. Now… prosecutions are on the rise… if they aren’t getting the felon… just who are they putting behind bars? People with divorce restraining orders? Just who are the people being prosocuted under project exile? Inquiring minds want to know.

(I posted this same comment under another thread, but I think the question needs to be asked)



------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
IF WE CANT ENFORCE THE LAWS ON THE BOOKS
WHY MAKE MORE?
I read that as 'if we cant restict freedoms now with the manpower we now have we need to spend more money to hire and train LEO's better to restrict american's now so that they will know that what was a 'RIGHT' in the 30's is now a crime in the 00's or 2000
even and especially by the NRA who are helping get such restictions enforced on formerly as brought out lawabiding american's.
In other words we are Being told to admit that by obeying or exercising consitutional rights WE are the criminal's and we are endangering society with our 'unpermitted guns'.
Under project exile to BEAR an arm because your a US citizen is defunct no longer legal or viable, but hey your still a gunrights activist,LOL.
And my name is Donald Trump.
If your still following this thread you many begin to realize that the law they the NRA our great defender is defending is not the 2nd amendment but the so called 'CARRY permits'
or laws of your state legislature and the senate that have been written over the 2nd to
rewrite your rights or protect them by limiting them.
Those that campaign for carry PERMITS say what about a gunowners license?,because if the liberals help pass this it wont be a permit to even carry it will be a law
ALLOWING YOU WITH PERMISSION AND FEE TO OWN A GUN PERIOD.
Think about it in 10 years when permits and gunowners license's are in most states the liberals will simply say to most further shooting's
'well the only ones that are allowed to have guns ' are those permitted to'
hmmmmm.

When this exile thing started up by the industrious and yes still illustrious NRA
a wise man asked
'arent these the unconstitutional laws weve all fought so hard against the passing of'
Most of us for the past few years hopped up and said yes,
but the reality is NO many of us were with the NRA supporting laws we were told would keep 'guns out of the hands out of the criminals.'
Have we all forgotten to NO NOT THE LIBERALS
the ruling class it should be criminal for a civillian to own a gun and each law is only to burden gunownership as a whole and as so many have wisely brought out above laws are but a joke to criminals if not a protection.
The wise man who immediately attacked the
enforcement of these unconstitutional gunlaws
(ever hear the NRA 'our leader' say that??)
or as I call it the exiling of gunowners is
Larry Pratt the Executive Directer of that small gun lobby GOA www.gunowners.org

In finally closing to say where this fun 'get guns out of criminals hands' bandwagon has gotten us lets look at the
pro ???? gun newsletter some may have heard of Legally armed (legallyarmed.com I beleive)
At the top it usually sias 'we have over a 2,500,000 legally armed americans.'
Now if thats the line were toting what are we saying about our other 78 million armed countrymen.
More to the point what are we giving the feds permission to do with these 'unlegally armed gunmen' who have not been approved by our faithful (waco,ruby ridge,NAM) government to be able to defend their lives.
Will the NRA help the FEDs exile them
I wont help the NRA do any of that BS.

To call Bush or the NRA the far right wing is a bad joke. www.lp.org www.jbs.org www.gunowners.org

Great post Jordan keep it up and theyll label you an extremist like me.




------------------
"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
The most aggrivating thing about projekt exile is that it has gained the support of otherwise pro RKBA groups because it's a NRA approved violation of rights. I do not like how the NRA absorbs funds supposed to be used in the defense of RKBA to lobby for anticonstitutional laws to be passed. I suspect that leadership the NRA has been absorbed by this socialist agenda. They do nothing like they should with the amount of money they receive from members. A commercial at 3:30am isn't exactly going to do much seeing as no one is even awake. They absorb a lot of money and waste it so it won't be spent where it is needed and then they go out lobbying for more strict gun laws - I know it ruffles feathers to say that but that is the way I see it, I'm not trying to divide, the NRA has already done that by encouraging the support of unconstitutional gun laws. It is a very slick way to pacify people when they think that their rights are going away legally and there is someone fighting for them. I think the NRA exists now specifically for that reason, while our rights are being systematically whittled away they go even so far as to justify laws and acquire support of pro RKBA types for anticonstitutional purposes. My opinion, before you say that I'm just trying to cause trouble etc. just remember that I don't support stricter gun laws at all, the NRA does.

I'm not blaming members of course and there seems there is beginning to be attempt to take back control of the NRA which is exactly what needs to happen. Heston may sound good but I don't believe he's on our side for a second.


[This message has been edited by scud (edited August 22, 2000).]
 
Another dangerous aspect of "Project Exile" is, What is an illegal gun? In the billboards and ads I've seen this isn't stated. It simply says to call, BR549, when you see an illegal gun. To some, ALL guns are illegal. See a gun, any gun, report it.

I see this as a vague and dangerous tool against guns. What next? See a Bible on your neighbor's shelf and turn them in?

'Good job Comrade. You have done the right thing to turn in your brother for having a pellet gun. He is criminal and will be dealt with. You will be rewarded. You are good citizen.'
 
The problem I see with any of these laws is the following:

1 - It starts as a well-meaning effort to keep criminals away from guns (and therefore armed criminals away from society)

2 - It mutates into an effort to keep guns away from criminals (and therefore the focus shifts on the gun instead of the criminal)

3 - It snowballs into the creation of a bunch of victimless crimes (i.e. "having a gun" becomes a crime in itself - no matter what you do or even intend to do with it)

4 - In this mutated form it sadly reinforces the dicotomy gun=crime, which has sadly become so rooted in our post-baby-boom culture.

That's why, while I support its original intent, I am highly skeptical of the consequences.

------------------
Private gun ownership is the capital sin in the left's godless religion. Crime is merely a venial mistake.

Check out these gals: www.sas-aim.org

Get some real news at www.worldnetdaily.com
 
This is exactly the point I brought up to the BATF agent and US Attorney when the visited our Arizona Firearms Safety Coalition (both pro and antis on board.).

I mentioned that the signs on the Texas buses "Have an illegal gun, go to prison." I told him that when I see that sign I think of myself (given the current climate). I then added in near synchronization with the NRA instructor to my side, "There shouldn't be any such thing as an illegal gun."

The US Atty responded in a subdued voice, "But there _are_ illegal guns."

I am actively fighting against "Arizona Exile" but the US Atty can put it in place without our "help" which was more for promotional value anyway.

"My CHL instructor told us "if we can't
keep the guns out of the schools we are all going to lose our guns"."

When I was going to school 25 years ago it was common for my hunting friends to bring their guns to school. Nobody blinked.

Rick
 
Perhaps the biggest problem with project exile is that it was based on federal enforcement of unconstitutional gun laws. They were threatening to get people on laws that even the Supreme Court has struck down, such as the federal ban on guns in schools.

To have the NRA turn on the Constitution at this point is a strange sight, at the same time that the court is starting to slightly lean our way. But they probably correctly figure that the average american is so ignorant about the Constitution that they wouldn't notice. All these unconstitutional federal laws are justified on "regulating interstate commerce." Of course, this is a complete fraud and in the Lopez(1995) decision the SC said they could no longer use this ploy. Hasn't made any difference.

At least the Project Exiles using state laws, though they have their own problems as others here have pointed out, aren't blatantly unconstitutional unless they violate State constitutions.
 
I am an LEO in VA, the original EXILE State. It isn't all its cracked up to be.

I charged a Wife Beater who had a previous Felony record with illegal possession of a firearm and it was dealt with just like any other Felony charge. Right up to the point where he got off by bringing his wife to court drunk, so that she couldn't testify! The CA tried to convict the guy on my testimony alone. Obviously, I had to testify that both people lived there. The original plan had been to ask the wife details about the gun and base his ownership on her ignorance, but no dice.
EXILE is a great theory, but it doesn't seem to be doing very much in my area to hurt the intended targets, let alone anyone else.
 
When my shop teacher that I had in high school had been in that same school as a student, kids one year had a project to make a .38 revovler in class. They made it, and the kid kept it in his locker. Nobody thought ANYTHING of it. Kids haven't changed genetically since then. They are still the same kind of humans. They are killing each other now for lots of reasons. One of the reasons is parents can't spend as much time with them anymore. Wanna know why? Taxes. We have to work twice as hard to pay Uncle Sam so that he can stomp on us with his big old boots and take away our civil liberties.
 
was it a misdemeanor domestic violence charge and was the guy on parole or probation?

if yes and no. the case outcome on the gun issue was 'RIGHT'.

project exile is a terrible idea. i hope that it's 'failing' in other parts of the country.
 
About a year and a Half ago everyone on rec.guns, ar15.com, and I assume here, were crying out about how great Project Exhile was and how it wold be a great program.

Guess what. IT IS. The Idea is perfect. However it is now being twisted by the people in power and could hurt us all.

Anything like this is subject to the powers that be. If they are good then this sort of project will work out great. If they are bad then this sort of project will screw us HARD.
 
I will forever see the greatest crime in america as the proliferation of laws.
NO it cant be good even whent he powers that be are good.
Cops in a bad mood you name it.
And we all know theirs' no way were ever going to get rid of a sizable group of anti-gun liberals and powerful falandering republicans.
Think about the republicans leaders were the greatest pushers of the latest anti-gun bills.
Senate leader Trent Lott and
House speaker Danny Hassert.
Both pushed the NRA backed Junvenile Injustice bill.
I know longer send the NRA gunlaw backers money.But I do back Knox,GOA,COA JPFO and a few other hardcore groups.
While this notice of the way youve all been rather blatantly sold out may make some NRA BOD members take notice it wont make them change because....
too many of us say all of this and then send them our green.
And far worse too many of us actually listen to the LIBERAL media when they for some odddddddddd reason list the NRA as our GREAT(??????) defender.
The people should never in a free society be subject to any politician or law if the people are in power the politicians and the laws should be subject to the people.
This includes the NRA, good luck on that one
like everyone program thats slaps us while taking our dollars they seem to have the full backing of the media.
You say how easy, were told their our friend defender they even send lots of money in that direction while in reality......
Lets enforce restrictions on the Constitution and make the streets safer.
Heehee,the liberals must have parties just over project exile.
Stop wasting time join the only groups blastint the exile of gunownership. www.jpfo.org www.gunowners.org www.citizensofamerica.org www.keepandbeararms.org

their really are other right wing extremists out their
Im so happy I could cry....

------------------
"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
"If they are bad then this sort of project will screw us HARD."

Yep. This is why government power should always be very limited and laws should be few and clear. Good intentions do not change the fact that eventually the bad guys (the really bad guys) will be in power and they will use those new tools against the rest of us.

"bringing his wife to court drunk, so that she couldn't testify! "

I'll have to remember that. It could come in handy one day.
 
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