I love my 460 S&W, the grip is perfect IMO and the heavy caliber is easy to handle, I shoot it SA. My buddy has a SBH and even though its a much lighter caliber it is much more difficult to control. As far as loading and fire speed, it makes no difference to me considering the purpose of these guns. I just dont understand the long cane style handle on SA's. Is there a SA made with the grip tucked under like a DA? Is there a good argument for one grip over the other?
Why SA -vs- DA?
- Thread starter BoogieMan
- Start date
BoogieMan said:
I'm not clear on what you mean by "control" - that the SBH has much more muzzle rise? The grip on SAs is designed so the gun rolls up in your hand during recoil, so muzzle rise is part of the package. The guns themselves can be controlled (i.e. shot accurately) as well as DA/SA revolvers, though. Check out a master below - lots of power, muzzle rise and control.
http://www.customsixguns.com/
“I just dont understand the long cane style handle on SA's. Is there a SA made with the grip tucked under like a DA? Is there a good argument for one grip over the other?” [Boogieman]
Are you talking about square butt vs round butt? Plow vs birdshead?
Am familiar with both handguns but am a little confused here.
Aren’t they both square butts?
Are you talking about square butt vs round butt? Plow vs birdshead?
Am familiar with both handguns but am a little confused here.
Aren’t they both square butts?
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newfrontier45
Moderator
The only reason anyone is able to shoot the X-frames with relative comfort is their weight. Pound for pound, a single action is typically more comfortable to shoot for most shooters because recoil is directed more into muzzle rise. Whereas a double action directs the recoil straight back into your palm. If your .460 was as light as the Super Blackhawk, you wouldn't like it.
Poindexter
New member
Also the 460 grip, and many similar, is optimized for aimed fire using the sights.
The SA grips, especially the plow handle grip that Colt started shipping in I think the 1840's is optimized for the barrel to behave as a natural extension of the arm. Outstanding for fast short range getting the job done without taking the time to use the sights.
The best description I have read, the one that felt like, "Oh yeah, I knew that but hadn't thought to say it in just a few words" is points "like the finger of God."
The SA grips, especially the plow handle grip that Colt started shipping in I think the 1840's is optimized for the barrel to behave as a natural extension of the arm. Outstanding for fast short range getting the job done without taking the time to use the sights.
The best description I have read, the one that felt like, "Oh yeah, I knew that but hadn't thought to say it in just a few words" is points "like the finger of God."
Just to make it clear. Im not downing or degrading the SBH, many people shoot it much more accurately than I ever hope to be with any handgun.
When I look at a DA vs SA the SA grip is farther behind the gun. IMO this would give the gun more leverage against your hand. I think my problem may be that I dont know how to let the gun "roll" in my hand. My primary weapon has always been semi-A's and in that discipline I am trying to keap the muzzle pushed down to get the next target or get back on target quicker. Do I need to lighten up on my grip? Also I am much more accurate with the 460 even though its much heavier. I think this has to do because of balance and having my hand under the gun more than behind it.
I would also accept the fact that some people are SA and some DA type of shooters, but I want to be able to shoot everything well.
When I look at a DA vs SA the SA grip is farther behind the gun. IMO this would give the gun more leverage against your hand. I think my problem may be that I dont know how to let the gun "roll" in my hand. My primary weapon has always been semi-A's and in that discipline I am trying to keap the muzzle pushed down to get the next target or get back on target quicker. Do I need to lighten up on my grip? Also I am much more accurate with the 460 even though its much heavier. I think this has to do because of balance and having my hand under the gun more than behind it.
I would also accept the fact that some people are SA and some DA type of shooters, but I want to be able to shoot everything well.
Hmm. I see what you’re saying re revolver grip/hand positioning. Hadn’t really paid much attention to it. Revolvers SA, DA, and all semi- auto pistols shoot the same (for me), but magnum revolvers require a different technique.
Have large hands. For me the grip position doesn’t matter so much as the way I guide/ride the recoil. Observing shooters I notice they guide the recoil in a vertical line, pretty much straight up.
I guide the magnum revolver in a horizontal arc and ride the recoil in an ellipse, bringing it back quickly for the next shot. Sort of like guiding your partner in ballroom dancing. Clear as mud, huh.
Don’t know if this helps any, but its what I do.
Good luck.
Have large hands. For me the grip position doesn’t matter so much as the way I guide/ride the recoil. Observing shooters I notice they guide the recoil in a vertical line, pretty much straight up.
I guide the magnum revolver in a horizontal arc and ride the recoil in an ellipse, bringing it back quickly for the next shot. Sort of like guiding your partner in ballroom dancing. Clear as mud, huh.
Don’t know if this helps any, but its what I do.
Good luck.
newfrontier45
Moderator
Big difference. When shooting a semi-auto, most are not exactly chambered in punishing cartridges and the isosceles or modern isosceles is preferred. That (locked elbows) works fine for those guns. That doesn't work for big sixguns, DA or SA. You'll hurt yourself trying to strongarm a heavy recoiling revolver. It will actually work your wrists and elbows more. It's best to use a firm, no firmer than you would grip a lady's hand and a relatively relaxed Weaver stance. Do not fight it but let the sixgun roll 'with' your hands, not 'in' them. The above link showing John Linebaugh shooting one of his big .500's one handed is a very good example. That sixgun can actually injure you if you try to fight it.
It takes practice but there's no reason why you can't build skill with all handgun types. I'm primarily a single action revolver shooter but spend enough time with DA's and autos to be proficient. I'm particularly fond of 1911's.
It takes practice but there's no reason why you can't build skill with all handgun types. I'm primarily a single action revolver shooter but spend enough time with DA's and autos to be proficient. I'm particularly fond of 1911's.
The grip difference is because of the way the guns are fired. The single action grip is fine when a light trigger pull is involved, but it gives the hand no purchase for DA firing, where the gun must be "squeezed" between the hand and the trigger finger. A DA grip, on the other hand (think N frame with Magna stocks) was made primarily with DA in mind and would be harder to cock single action.
Complicating things is that the SA grip has become "traditional" for SA guns. Of course, an N frame single action could be made, but cocking the hammer would be harder, and mainly it wouldn't "look like" an SAA and no one would buy it. (Even Rugers are "suspect" among SA fans because they don't have 1850's lockwork.)
Jim
Complicating things is that the SA grip has become "traditional" for SA guns. Of course, an N frame single action could be made, but cocking the hammer would be harder, and mainly it wouldn't "look like" an SAA and no one would buy it. (Even Rugers are "suspect" among SA fans because they don't have 1850's lockwork.)
Jim
Im on the heavier end with the smaller bore of the 460. 8-3/8 with irons but scope should be in any day.
Ill have to try and let the SBH roll. I will try the weaver stance also. I normally shoot triangle with a 1911/9. In that case recoil is almost non existent. SBH and 460 are a huge change over.
22-rimfire
New member
With double action revolvers and semi-auto pistols, you are pretty much fighting the recoil. It's a different feel with single actions as you are sort of flowing with the gun. But I would grip both pretty tightly until you get accustomed to the recoil differences and then adjust. Dropping a gun really bugs me.
buck460XVR
New member
I prefer the grip of a DA revolver over a SA, just like I prefer the grip angle of a 1911 over that of a Glock. Not a big deal, just a matter of preference. That old 3 screw .44 mag Blackhawk I had back in the seventies did not "roll" in my hand. It tended to beat up the web of my hand and stung like 'ell. I kinda wish I still had it, but since I did not enjoy shooting it, it went down the road to make room for a new SxS.
Buck460xvr@ Your comments almost always reflect my own. I dont like the Blocks or shoot them well, Love my 1911s and my 22/45, now that I have finaly added a DA wheelgun I dont know what took me so long. I had ordered it prior to shooting my buddies SBH. The SBH stung my hand and I began to wonder what I had got my self into with the 460. What a pleasant surprise it has been. But I am still going to figure out that SBH. So many people shoot them and shoot them well, it has to be me.
22-rimfire
New member
I prefer DA revolvers. But I know that I don't like the recoil of a Redhawk and I really have to pay attention to my SRH in terms of grip. I have a BFR 475/480 that is pretty pleasant to shoot for a big boomer. But as of yet, I have not shot any 475's from it. I may change my opinion.
I have shot a 500 S&W and it was not a big deal. Pretty heavy recoil, but I didn't have any particular problem with it. I feel sure I would feel the same way about the 460 in an X-frame.
The true test will come when I really start to shoot my Blackhawk in 41 mag. I have others and never seem to get around to shooting it.
I have shot a 500 S&W and it was not a big deal. Pretty heavy recoil, but I didn't have any particular problem with it. I feel sure I would feel the same way about the 460 in an X-frame.
The true test will come when I really start to shoot my Blackhawk in 41 mag. I have others and never seem to get around to shooting it.
The weights I quoted were from when they first came out. 10 inch barrel.
The Bisley is nice for big 5 shots. Reshaping a little helps the Bisley even more.
For the same HP, as caliber goes down, sharp recoil goes up. I think I've shot everything built on a Blackhawk. Staying awake helps a lot.
Pay attention to what you are doing.
The Bisley is nice for big 5 shots. Reshaping a little helps the Bisley even more.
For the same HP, as caliber goes down, sharp recoil goes up. I think I've shot everything built on a Blackhawk. Staying awake helps a lot.
Pay attention to what you are doing.
I had a Ruger 44 Mag back in the 70s.
My opinion was that the grip did not match the control needs of a magnum.
As stated, it rolled too much and the gun wound up pointing up and a need to repositioned your hand. No amount of grip can stop that (I worked construction and I had a grip like iron)
It was accurate, but annoying and hard on the hand and as it was my woods gun, slow to recover.
With the S&W type DA grip, you don't have to shift each shot (and I seldom shoot DA)
I ran the Police Practical in the N frame 357 and did well and shot it SA (until the very close up at 5 yards as I recall and then you could not miss the center let alone the target).
I think the classic SA grip is purely a Harley like think (if Harley does not sound like a long fart no one wants it). The DA type grip is far better and maybe within that there are improvements but the S&W does good for me (I settled in on the 41 Magnum as the best compromise)
My opinion was that the grip did not match the control needs of a magnum.
As stated, it rolled too much and the gun wound up pointing up and a need to repositioned your hand. No amount of grip can stop that (I worked construction and I had a grip like iron)
It was accurate, but annoying and hard on the hand and as it was my woods gun, slow to recover.
With the S&W type DA grip, you don't have to shift each shot (and I seldom shoot DA)
I ran the Police Practical in the N frame 357 and did well and shot it SA (until the very close up at 5 yards as I recall and then you could not miss the center let alone the target).
I think the classic SA grip is purely a Harley like think (if Harley does not sound like a long fart no one wants it). The DA type grip is far better and maybe within that there are improvements but the S&W does good for me (I settled in on the 41 Magnum as the best compromise)
newfrontier45
Moderator
I've been shooting single actions for 26yrs and the .44Mag for 22yrs and have never had the need to shift my grip between shots. Like I said, the sixgun should not roll 'in' your hand at all. If it does, you're doing something wrong, probably gripping too hard and trying to manhandle it. You should not be white-knuckling it. Grip it firmly but relaxed. If you hold it like you're afraid of it, it will hurt you. I love my N-frames but there's a reason why 99% of all custom five-shot .45's, .475's and .500's are built on a Ruger Bisley. Same reason I'm having my custom .500 built on a Ruger Bisley. Because for 99% of shooters, it is the most comfortable platform for handling heavy recoil. Perception and nostalgia have no effect on shooting comfort.