Why +P for .45 ACP?

R

RWK

New member
I own and carry five excellent full-sized .45 ACP autoloaders (three 1911A1-types, a Sig P-220, and an H&K USP Tactical). By far -- no desire or intent to start another caliber war here -- the .45 Auto is my preferred semiautomatic round. My normal defensive ammunition is 230 grain, either HydraShoks or Golden Sabers. I am well aware of the velocity differences that accrue with +P loads -- and their potential expansion effect.

My questions for our TFL experts are:
> Why +P for .45 ACP?
> Is there any practical advantage for non-LEOs?
> Does any concrete data suggest a realistic -- non-theoretical -- advantage for +P in .45 ACP?

In sum, aren't standard pressure (and therefore velocity) .45 ACP loads more-than-adequate -- almost ideal -- for self-defense?
 
just MHO, in a "full-size .45" of about 5" barrel length I agree that standard loads should work fine. I like the 185 gr +P loads in my 3.5" barrel Off. Model however, to compensate for the shorter barrel.

-ric
 
Yes, now that you ask...

they represent a higher profit margin for mfrs and retailers. A box of 20 costs about as much as 50 hardballs. :)
 
Expansion seems to be a problem for heavy bullets (i.e. 230 grain JHP) for 1911's with short barrels. The 165 grain and 185 grain +P loads seem to work much better (expansion wise) for those using short barrels.
 
I carry 230gr FMJ +P when I can find it. First let me say I am not interested in starting a cal war. I have my favorite cal and regardless of what anyone says it will remain so as I am sure many here feel the same way. Now to answer the thread question. I really want to like the 45acp - I really do! I just bought another new 45 (Glock 21) and it is again the only 45acp I have. To me the round is big enough already (why worry about HPs?) but I have concerns about getting the penetration that I want. Mainly against auto bodies/glass as here vehicles are used as weapons against others quite a bit and are considered under law as deadly weapons.Besides I don't think the round is fast enough to reliably expand. There again I am not saying this to argue the point but to explain my preference for the FMJ. While living in Opelika AL I had a good friend on the OPD. The carry weapon was the S&W 45acp auto. During an unpleasantness he had to shoot at someone three times in a mobile home. He attempted to shoot his issue 45acp HP talon claw eagle beak gold and black factory rounds thru the outer wall of the mobile home and 2 of the 3 rounds FAILED TO PENETRATE THE FLIMSY WALL! The next day he purchased his own carry sidearm a 357mag revolver. Now that story has always given me cause for concern. Having said all that I am however,looking forward to shooting my G21 and seeing how accurate I can make it.
 
Sorry for the length of this post in advance!

Try the 40 Super out of your 45ACP if you want some serious penetration. You'll need a new barrel and spring but man, this round has the goods to be a real knock down, penetrating cartridge.
Here are some stats off Triton's homepage, makers of the 40 Super(www.triton-ammo.com) You can see that only the 44 Mag beats it in muz energy, but not by much. They also make a 165 and 200 gr loads


Cartridge Bullet Wt. Muz Vel Muz Energy Barrel Length
.40 Super 135 gr. 1800 971 5"
.44 Magnum 180 gr. 1610 1035 6"
9 x 23 Win 125 gr. 1450 584 5"
.400 Cor-Bon 135 gr. 1450 630 5"
. 357 Mag 125 gr. 1450 584 4"
10mm 135 gr. 1400 718 5"
.45 Super 165 gr. 1400 718 5"
357 SIG 125 gr. 1350 506 4"
.40 S&W 135 gr. 1325 526 4"


Triton is also coming out with a new cartridge in Jan, will release after it's unvieled at the SHOT show. It will be the 450SMC(small magnum cartridge). It is suppose to only be beat by the 40 Super. This round will use the normal 45 ACP barrel and will only require a stronger spring. Either one of these two should really give you the penetrating, stopping power you're looking for out of your 45 ACp, while alowing you to switch back to conventional 45ACp rounds for practice(cheaper) Here is their press release that I cut off their homepage IRT the 450SMC:
Triton Cartridge News Release

December 5, 2000

Coming in January 2001

The 450 SMC (Short Magnum Cartridge)

For those that want more from their .45 ACP chambered handguns, Triton introduces the new 450 SMC. The 450 SMC is based on a simple principle, to strengthen the weakest link in the .45 ACP chain and boost its performance to new levels. All this while not over-stressing the gun (OEM .45 ACP firearms must be modified with the use of a heavy recoil spring).

To accomplish this Triton went to the heart of the problem, the .45 ACP cartridge case. By borrowing from the .45 Winchester Magnum and .40 Super cartridge cases, Triton has come up with a winning combination. A cartridge case that is internally stronger while maintaining the same exterior dimensions as the .45 ACP.


The 450 SMC combines the robust strength of the .45 Winchester Magnum case with a small primer pocket for the thicker small rifle primer; ensuring the most robust case possible. The small primer additionally provides a visual safety to readily differentiate the 450 SMC from a standard .45 ACP.


The 450 SMC is a great choice for .45 ACP fans offering the flexibility of using both the 450 SMC (with a heavy recoil spring) and .45 ACP from the same barrel. Production firearms for the .450 are available from STI International, 114 Halmar Cove, Georgetown TX 78628, (800) 959-8201.

From the 165 grain JHP at 1,450 fps, to the 230 grain JHP at 1150 fps, the 450 SMC surpasses the 10mm in performance and is second only to the .40 Super.

With its small primer pocket and robust construction, the 450 SMC is the ideal choice for the reloader.

The 450 SMC will be available in our Quik-Shok and Hi-Vel lines.

Quik-Shok 165 grain JHP 1450 fps/770 ft/lbs 5”bbl
Quik-Shok 230 grain JHP 1150 fps/675 ft/lbs 5” bbl
Hi-Vel 165 grain JHP 1450 fps/770 ft/lbs 5” bbl
Hi-Vel 230 grain JHP 1150 fps/675 ft/lbs 5” bbl

For more information, contact David Schmidbauer at 1-800-861-3362
 
Why? Because they can. Marketing rules. Does it make any difference? I doubt it. .45 ACP 230 grain hardball does penetrate much more than the hollowpoints in this caliber. I still prefer hardball despite the usual warnings that it lacks "stopping power." My 1911 Gov't model loaded with Winchester hardball gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

As for Triton and other manufacturers who continue to try to re-invent the wheel: Not on my time, not on my dime.

Buy a wheelgun in .44 magnum if you want to play the velocity game.
 
Feel confident with standard pressure 230g JHP's out of a full size 1911. The hydrashock and golden saber do not need improvement.

I use 165g hydrashocks in short barrelled guns, though.
 
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