Why not a fuel-air rifle?

rod

New member
Years ago Weirauch designed a unique airgun the HW35 Barracuda. This air rifle differed from those before it in that a small amount of an ether based substance was injected into the compression chamber before discharge. The result was a detonation (as opposed to a controlled burn) of the fuel and some very high pellet velocities. Unfortunately since the substance detonated the results were uncontrollable and very damaging to the gun in the long run.

Modern high powered airguns are known to burn small amounts of their lubricants upon discharge. This more controlled process add significantly to the velocities produced, even though the fuel is not optimized and generally a poor energy producer.

My question is this: What if a firearm were produced with the express purpose of burning a hydrocarbon fuel to propel a projectile? What kind of energy could be expected from such a device, would it be comparable to firearms using smokeless powders? What kind of ostacles would someone who wanted to produce such a device encounter (physical and design obstacles not political ones).

If the basic format of a spring piston rifle were used it would probably consist of a piston powered by a coil or air spring and a cylinder. A bullet would be set in the barrel with its aft end at the front of the gun's combustion chamber, possible held in place by a tensioning ring. The trigger would release the piston to surge forward, and the fuel to be dispersed into the combustion chamber, at some point when the compression ratio was compatible with burning the fuel to be used (as opposed to detonating it) the piston would rotate into lockup with a set of locking lugs and a heat source introduced (electrical, chemical or mechanical). The resulting reaction would produce the power to send the bullet down the barrel. The tensioning ring around the bullet would be designed to hold it in place until maximum pressure had been developed in order to produce higher velocities, the locking lugs would prevent the piston from being forced backward. The device would work similar to a gun that fires from an open bolt. The lock time would probably be pretty long.

Somewhere I remember that a cup of gasoline can produce as much energy as a 1/4 stick of dynamite (or something like that) and given that the combustion chamber volume could be designed to be much larger that the typical cartridge volume I wonder why performance similar to that of smokeless powder could not be produced?

The advantages would be:
-Easy availability of ammunition. Fuels are readily available and all you would have to do it buy or fashion the projectile itself.
-Cheap ammunition. Since ammunition production wouldn't be reliant on large manufacturing firms and plants designed to produce and handle partially nitrated cellulose and the primary high explosives (primers), costs per shot could be very low.

Anyone have any thoughts about this? Has someone already tried it? Any automotive engineers out there who might be able to determine what peak pressures might be produced?

=rod=
 
Well...as a long-time hot-rodder I can tell you that the biggest issue will be in getting enough air in. Using something like a fuel injector could get the fuel in, crank it off with an electric spark...but how do you cram many times the amount of air in?

Hmmmm...I'll tell you how. Nitrous Oxide. When burned it releases a whole lot of oxygen...in it's compressed liquid state it's cold as hell, that causes the air going into a motor to get compressed and you fit more into the combustion chamber. So set up twin injectors, one for fuel and one for N2O.

God help you if the gas injector partial clogs, you'll detonate RIGHT NOW. In use, the N2O bottle's pressure drops so you'll need a pressure regulator.

Pure hydrogen might make more sense...but then if THAT tank gets hit by a round...wooohoo. Ditto propane.

Rob, the real problem is that for this to work, you've got to do a "handloading type process" right at the instant before firing, in the field. Doesn't sound too cool to me, sorry.

Jim March
 
Hi Jim,

The air is compressed in the forward piston stroke. At rest the piston is rearward and the compression chamber has a volume say about 8 times what it will have at firing. When the trigger breaks the piston (powered by a spring) in pushed forward reducing the compression chamber volume and increasing pressure until it reaches a predetermined point and then cams into engagement with the locking lugs. Same principle as a spring piston air rifle or an automobile cylinder. When everythings compressed then we set it off.

=rod=
 
Hey, Jim, that is Rod, not Rob....

Personally, it seems to me like it would be dangerous. Kinda like carrying around a flamethrower. Gasoline seems much less stable than smokeless powder to me. Gasoline fumes are obviously explosive, which would mean that one small leak could be big trouble.. that means the structural integrity of the unit would have to very great indeed, given the recoil of the weapon would wear on it.

Maybe I am missing something, but off the top of my head, it seems not at all worth the risks.
 
Sounds novel and fun. The guys at Lassen College use to make propane cannons and to the accompanyment of an ear shattering bang, launch all sorts of heavy metals.

For myself I'd advocate the return of the dynamite launching airgun which was used on the good ship Vesuvius (980 lb shell filled with 500 lbs of TNT with a range of about 1700-1750 yards). While it wasn't very accurate (used to bombard Santiago, Cuba during Spanish American War), it did make for a very loud bang. Hey, airguns aren't ATF regulated, are they?
 
Rob:

Well it may not turn out to be worth it or it may ... I don't know. But first of all I wonder if it is possible. Secondly here are a few more advantages.

-The rifle would basically be a caseless design so extraction and ejection would be eliminated from the cycling operation, two major sources of mechanical failure.

-No matter what happened politically or otherwise you would always be able to get ammunition for this rifle, as long as you can cast or machine yourself a projectile.

You're right gasoline is more volatile than smokeless powder all the more so since ammunition comes with the powder encased and sealed. But we drive around in devices that are filled with gasoline, we even fill them ourselves so I think the technology could be made safe. You might have to buffer the tank against motion a little, I don't know.

=rod=
 
Rod,
Every one is forgetting one main thing. Once you add any kind of fuel it becomes a FIREARM, and then comes under the same laws as any other firearm.
If BATF were to find you tinkering with one they would ask for your manufactures license, or haul you to the Federal PEN.
 
What we really need are Phasers - set at "stun" :) :) :)

Beam me up Scotty.....
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Regards,
~Douglas in CT :)



[This message has been edited by Douglas in CT (edited February 16, 1999).]
 
Robert,

I'm not claiming it wouldn't be classified as a firearm. I'm not familiar enough with the definition to be able to tell you for sure. Just means you'd need to get a license for building an experimental firearm from the ATF to make it.
 
What about portability considerations? In order for this to be a repeater, you would probably need some sort of atomizer for the fuel, a pump to push the fuel into the chamber, an ignition system etc. All of this in one receiver?
Maybe set up similar to a paintball gun with an external fuel tank, sort of like where the paintballs are stored. For safety's sake you could have the ignition system (battery or hand crank generator) built into the receiver while the fuel system (self contained pump with built in atomizer) would be in the external fuel tank. Use a quick connect fitting to connect tank to receiver.
 
The thing about fuel is exactly why I'm advocating an overgrown air-cannon. You hook it up to a compressor to load. The problem would be to make a disposable gasket which could seal the projectile and the rifling such that there could be a degree of accuracy. The original used aboard the Vesuvius was terribly inaccurate.
 
Rod, I think this is a neat topic!

As a onetime inveterate backyard tinkerer myself, I'm going to give this some thought.

What your proposing sounds like a diesal engine cylinder used to launch a projectile.
Is it practical? Who cares?

It's pretty neat!!

Good Shooting,

Kurt
 
Gary,
There are already "overgrown airguns" being produced. There was an article a few years back in American Survival Guide. I remember reading about a lever action nine millimeter and a 20 gauge shotgun. Both were powered by an integral airchamber that was filled by a separate tank or handpump. If I recall correctly, the 9mm held 6 rounds, and reached impresive velocities that put it well within the deer rifle class :) . The 20 ga. fired shot or slugs with power similar to conventional firearms. The only downside was that they were imported on a limited basis, parts are hard to find, and they were expensive. I hope this helps.
-PCurrent

[This message has been edited by PCurrent (edited February 16, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by PCurrent (edited February 16, 1999).]
 
Has anyone heard of a potato gun? They send a potato several hundred yards and work off the principle of compressed air and fuel. They're even ATF aproved. Just search potato gun on the net and you'll get all kinds of diagrams and instructions on how to build one.
 
fal308: Here's my take on the fuel system. I would meter the fuel since shot to shot consistency is so important to accuracy. A small resevoir maybe in the piston with a small spring loaded piston of its own to pump it through the atomizer (automoble fuel injector nozzle?). On rectracting the piston back to prepare for a shot the fuel metering piston would be retracted too sucking a metered amount of fuel out of the tank. On trigger break the piston in the small metering tank would release too forcing the fuel out of the injector. It would be a pump in itself powered by whatever was powering the gun's action i.e.: the shooter or recovered barrel gasses.

Kurt: Yeah! Right now it's just could I make one, the evaluation phase.

PCurrent: Pre-charged pneumatic (PCP)airguns are powerful with some pump up models from the 19th century able to generate power nearly equivalent to the firearms of the era. Modern PCP's generally can push up to 100 ft/lbs of energy about the same as a .22 lr. Korea is the manufacturer of most of the higher powered guns including one chambered in 9mm. The run at SCUBA pressures, between 2000 and 3000 psi.

Utvols: I've seen lots of potato gun sites and they are a crude form of fuel air firearm. If you can do that much without even compressing the propellant imagine what you can do with a more sophisticated design.

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I can see some problems with this set up...
You'll need a fuel tank...
The scene in Saving Private Ryan shows this wouldnt be such a hot ticket...

I've thought of similar things before - and always end up - just go caseless...



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Resistance is Futile
 
Rod,

Reading your last post, I think the biggest problem is going to be LIFTING the darn thing.

I recall reading that "dieseling" can occur in piston air rifles; if they are not oiled properly and that it is potentially dangerous.

I'm no engineer; but if this is the case, I think what we're talking about is simply introducing fuel into an existing airgun design and harnassing the exploding gases to launch the projecile?

(Assuming the design is able to create more energy than it consumes; which, I think, is the reason this hasn't been done already)

But forget that! In the new "RodGun", or "RodRifle", the piston would have to:

1) lurch forward to create enough compression heat to ignite the fuel.

2) lock at the top of it's travel and act as a breech-plate for the expanding gases to push against.

We might call this a "2 strokes and we're done" engine!

The first stroke is when your arm cocks the action and sets the spring. The second occurs when the piston moves to the top of it's travel.

The energy created by the expanding gases would likely be expended projecting the bullet. I don't see how you could use that same energy to also re-cock the action. There must be a formula for this, something about "...equal and opposite reaction..." but we will have to ask Newton about it!

If the explosion does create a usable surplus of energy, to re-cock the action, we still need a delaying mechanism to lock and unlock the piston at the top of it's stroke. HK's roller lock action?

In addition: I think we should make the cylinder REALLY STRONG; so we don't run the risk of building a piston driven self decapitation machine!! :-)

Lastly, we also need a lot of hot air to charge the fuel and heat the cylinder. This we can borrow from the anti-gun lobby!! ;-)

Keep at it!

Kurt

[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited February 16, 1999).]
 
I fired a potato gun about a year ago that used Aqua-Net hair spray as a propellent. There was a direct from radio shack little red button hooked to a 9 volt battery that apparently caused a spark somewhere somehow and the thing went off with a big Whompf. It was kinda neat.
 
My ROTC battalion made spud guns out of empty LAW launchers. They made the "how to take out a bunker" training a whole lot of fun. :)
 
I appreciate all the comments and critique guys.

I posted this thread in another forum also and I thought I'd include one very interesting response I got from a gentleman there.

*********************************************
As this info has been released to the public, it is no longer classified. Years ago when I was at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, I witnessed the firing of a tanks' main gun, that used a fuel-air propellant. The gun nearly achieved normal velocity with propane as the fuel.(BTW, it produced the most awesome muzzle flash you would ever want to see!!) With a still classified fuel, the weapon reached almost 6000fps, with standard FSAPDS
projectiles. However, it seems the fuel was much too volatile to remain stored in the tank environ, and left highly toxic and corrosive vapors after burning. To the systems benefit, it was very quick to re-load and could be tailored for each shot through the ballistic computer, plus, much more ammo could be carried on-board. I have been told that cutbacks have shelved the project until a future date. HOOAH
*********************************************

Kurt: We definitely *don't* want dieseling in the badly oiled airgun sense. This is a detonation of fuel and its analogy in an internal combustion engine is engine "knock". It doesn't produce usable energy and it destroys the mechanism. We are looking for a controlled burn of fuel as takes place in a gasoline or diesel engine cylinder. High powered spring piston airguns produce about 1200 psi and temperatures of about 1000 F at the moment the pellet begin to move down the barrel this would cause anything but the most resistant fuels to detonate. In that sense I'm looking reduce the tremendous compression ratio of the airgun to pressures more common in engines (haven't pressure tested a cylinder in a long time but I think they run about 150 - 200 psi right?), this is only about 1/6th that of an airgun. At this compression the fuel burns quickly but regularly producing a nice push just like smokeless powder.

I had the same concerns about a semi auto fuel air rifle not having enough energy left to recock itself (and it may not who knows). But I realized I was thinking in terms of an airgun whose only real source of energy is the spring (aside from some airguns burning a small amount of lubricant). Certainly in this scenario the gun couldn't possible produce enough energy after firing to recock itself since by definition it never had more energy than the spring contained in the first place. But in a fuel air rifle the primary source of energy is the combustion of the fuel, the spring is only there to provide force for compression to create optimal conditions for this combustion. Such a gun will certainly produce much more power than that which was orginally contained in the spring. So depending on how much is left over after firing it may be capable of self cocking.

=rod=
 
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