Why no smallish 22WMR Semi Auto's

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deerslayer303

New member
All this .22 talk got me to thinking. Why is there no small~ish 22 magnum semi auto pistols made? Something the size of a Mosquito, P22, SR22 (maybe) that would hold 10 rounds. Now that would be a cool little weapon. Is it the length of the round? I mean I know about the PMR30 and AMT, but they are not exactly small, are they? Never seen one in person.
 
Because the cartridge is too expensive to shoot and there's no demand. Too big for a smallish anything too. OAL is 1.350".
 
Here's my take on the reasons.
  • It is difficult to make a long, skinny, straight-walled and rimmed case feed properly in a semi-auto. This is far and away the #1 problem.
  • Uncertainty about its market potential, combined with the difficulty of adapting existing pistol designs to the unusual dimensions of the .22WMR round. A pocket pistol in .22WMR is a totally unproven concept. Even though they're not pocket pistols, it's worth noting that the AMT AutoMag II and the Grendel P30 were far from being resounding marketing successes, and it's hard to say how well the Kel-Tec PMR-30 would sell if it were more readily available.
  • Decades' worth of inexpensive guns in .22LR, .22S, and .25 ACP from Beretta, Walther, Taurus, Jennings, Phoenix, Astra, Bauer, etc. etc. etc. has arguably created a perception that a small blowback pistol is supposed to be cheap, i.e. under $350 street price if not under $250. (Witness the persistent grousing about the Walther P22 being overpriced in relation to its build quality or perceived lack thereof.) A gunmaker may have to price it low in order for it to sell well, making the venture even more risky.
  • The round has historically been loaded mostly for rifles. Most commercial loads use slow-burning powders and bullets that are either designed not to expand (to avoid spoiling meat when hunting small edible game) or to expand and fragment violently (to kill varmints humanely). Neither type of bullet is really suitable in a SD application. However, a couple of SD pistol loads have now been introduced, so this may change the game some.
That said, it might be workable if Ruger were to attempt it. :)
 
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I suspect, but don't know for sure, that short barrels make the .22 WMR round perform only a little better than a .22LR. And then there's the issue of capacity.

That said, I recently picked up a Kel-Tec PMR-30 and am amazed at how light it is, how well the 30-round magazines, and how good the trigger is. It shoots very well (some say, "like a LASER".) Downsizing that gun a bit (but keeping the current barrel length) with maybe a 15-round mag, might be an alternative. (That 30-round PMR-30 magazine seems to be a breakthrough of a different sort... 30 rounds of rimmed ammo in a double-stack mag!!)

We're having a related discussion on the effectiveness of the .22 WMR round -- and there's little information available. While .22 rimfire ammo is notorious for malfunctions, most of that seems to be found in the cheap stuff -- with higher priced ammo doing better.
 
I have an old 6 1/2" AMT AutoMagII that is a hoot to shoot! It's killed a pretty big ralttel snake and a couple of racoons. More of a fun outdoors gun than anything, makes a big Boom!
 
The PMR-30 is lighter and smaller than the pictures make it out to be. I know a person who conceals his.
 
Me and a few friends always ask things like this, when the truth of the matter is demand, I like the 22 mag cartridge it has a little more pepper than a lr, I like it for things like skunks, closer yotes, ect, has no issues killing something small or something bigger with a well placed shot... But the truth of the matter is ammo is expensive and the ballistics tell all the tales. You can make a list of all the calibers with all their numbers and take away 90% of them, be left with a handful that can do what all others do...

we have too many calibers out there, I am pretty sure the list will be shorter in the future..
 
Because 9mm ammo is cheaper and far more effective, and pistols chambering it can be just as small.
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True. But the .22 WMR will be (at least in the case of the KT PMR-30) far easier to shoot well and arguably more accurate. My PMR-30 is only slightly larger than my PF-9, lighter, far easier to shoot well at almost any distance, and holds 30 rounds, not 7.

I've come to believe that in a self-defense confrontation, where shots are actually fired, you want the other guy to stop -- before he can do you harm. Waiting for him to bleed out (by using bigger rounds) means he'll have time to do you in, too.

IF placement is critical -- and most say it is -- and if the .22 WMR can penetrate enough to make critical hits in the head, heart, or spinal cord -- that round might be more effective than most think.

I'm not selling my PF9 and carrying my PMR-30, but I would like to know more about the relative effectiveness of the .22 WMR round when fired from a reasonable barrel length. I've seen NOTHING that answers ore even addresses that question. I've seen ballistic gelatin tests of fancy self-defense rounds in 9mm, but not .22 WMR.

Check out the comparative performance for most handgun rounds based upon a large number of real-world shootings. I think you'll be surprised: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

You'll find that the .32 acp round is surprisingly effective, and also that the .22 round (short, long, and long rifle) is a surprisingly effective roundin many shootings, and .22 WMR is a hotter round.

I'm not advocating anything -- but just saying that some of our assumptions about what works may not be as valid as we think.

.
 
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HKFan9 said:
The PMR-30 is lighter and smaller than the pictures make it out to be.
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Lighter yes, but with a 4.3" barrel, I wouldn't exactly call it small. That's the barrel length of a full-size M&P9/40 or Ruger SR9/40.

I assumed that the OP is envisioning something in the LC9 or P3AT class.

Speaking of which...
Fishbed77 said:
Because 9mm ammo is cheaper and far more effective, and pistols chambering it can be just as small.
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^^^ At LC9 size, this is the bottom line.

I actually think this idea has SOME potential if you took it down to Taurus PLY or Beretta 21 size- i.e. a true mouse gun- but then (a) the round may not really outperform .22LR [IIRC it barely does in a NAA .22WMR mini-revolver], and (b) it's hard to say if this would be a profitable venture, as I doubt any existing .22/.25 mouse gun could be readily adapted to fit this cartridge [re: my previous post].
 
The main reason for the .25acp is because it feeds much better than 22LR. The small 22LR mouse guns are known for unreliable feeding.

The longer round is popular in revolvers with changeable cylinders and enough barrel for it to make a difference.
 
Lighter yes, but with a 4.3" barrel, I wouldn't exactly call it small. That's the barrel length of a full-size M&P9/40 or Ruger SR9/40.
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True, but the barrel isn't the hard part to conceal, the grip is.

I was just saying I remember seeing it only online and thinking it was similar size to my 5.7, however it seemed much smaller and lighter in person handling one.

It seems easier to carry than my Glock 19.. which is arguably one of the most popular carry guns.

I agree with others stating because of demand / OAL issues. We all know here in America, bigger is better!, we all are weak wristed unless we are packing .500S&W and .50AE ;)
 
The .22 WMR is a LOOOONG cartridge. It's longer than a .45 ACP, which is why there's no such animal as a 1911 chambered in .22 WMR. So a .22 magnum pistol would not be "small." It could be slim, but not "small." And I doubt there's enough potential market to make it worthwhile for any company to design one and tool up to manufacture it.
 
Viper99 said:
PMR-30 if you can find it? not really small thought.
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Just put my PMR-30 side by side with my SIG P228. The PMR-30 barrel is about 3/4th of an inch longer, but otherwise the two guns are very similar. The PMR-30 is much lighter (even if loaded with 30 rounds!)

People don't have problems carrying a SIG P228 or P229 (or the larger P226) so I doubt that the modest difference in slide length will be a deal-killer.

The question remains: how effective is the .22 WMR round? There doesn't seem to be much available that answers that question. I'll continue to carry 9mm until I get that question answered.
 
how effective is the .22 WMR round?
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About as effective as .22LR but the WMR gets better jacketed bullets, slightly heavier bullet options (50gr in the WMR-discounted the 60 grain SSS .22LR, because it will not stabilize in most pistol barrels)
Energy and velocity has a pretty negligible increase in a short pistol barrel between WMR and LR. Also, WMR tends to be more reliable in firing, but likely less reliable in feeding, due to it's length.

Put it in the right place, and it can be an effective round. And the fact that the PMR can hold 30 rounds, and the .22's have almost no recoil, isn't exactly a bad thing.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
The question remains: how effective is the .22 WMR round? There doesn't seem to be much available that answers that question.
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Speer advertises that their 40gr Gold Dot Short Barrel load delivers 99 fpe at the muzzle from a 1.9" barrel.

http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/short_brl.aspx

I would expect it to perform better out of a 4.3" PMR-30, but it's hard to say by how much.

For comparison, a typical .25 ACP 50gr FMJ load delivers around 70 fpe from a ~2" barrel, as does a typical 40gr .22LR solid. IIRC really hot 40gr hyper-velocity .22LR loads such as CCI Velocitors and Aguila SuperMaximum deliver around 90 fpe. (.22LR is typically advertised to deliver substantially higher energy than this, but almost all advertised ballistic figures are from a 18" or longer rifle barrel; I've derived these figures from 'Net gel tests performed with a ~2" mouse gun.)

For comparison, most ballistic figures rate a .32 ACP 73gr FMJ at around 130 fpe, and a .32 S&W Long 90gr LSWC at around 120 fpe. Buffalo Bore sells a .32 S&W Long 100gr LWC load that is advertised to deliver around 150 fpe from a snubby. Unlike the .22 WMR Speer Gold Dot, these loads don't use expanding bullets, but a fully expanded .22 Gold Dot won't be much greater in diameter than a .32-caliber solid.

In short, .22 WMR outperforms .22LR and .25 ACP out of short (<3") barrels, but it's outperformed by .32 ACP and .32 S&W Long, which should tell you that it's no powerhouse. ;)
 
carguychris said:
...in short, .22 WMR outperforms .22LR and .25 ACP out of short (<3") barrels, but it's outperformed by .32 ACP and .32 S&W Long, which should tell you that it's no powerhouse.
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Barrel length may be the tipping point. Check out this YOUTUBE link, which presents a fairly thorough analysis of FN 5.7 and .22 wmr performance in two different media, including FBI ballistic gel. It's an eye-opener! The .22 WMR may be a powerhouse when you add some length to the barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmhmtJvLZQU

The .22 WMR 30 gr. round in a PMR-30 (which has a 4.3" barrel) compared favorably to a similar "ball" FN 5.7 round in the FN 5.7 pistol (which has a 4.8" barrel); that round is supposedly much hotter.

They testers didn't have access to the carbine version of the Kel-Tec PMR-30 (which a friend has recently ordered), but it should be even more impressive and perhaps a good gun for home defense.

Using the FN 5.7 round in longer barrel - and they did that, using a bullpup FN carbine --dramatically increased the round's performance.

I'll agree that short barrels are not an answer, and I won't go there. But a shorter grip (15-rather than 30 rounds, perhaps) on the 4.3" barreled PMR-30 might be an interesting compromise. That wouldn't be a pocket gun, but it would smaller than many handguns widely used and very light.

That said, the grip in its present form is very comfortable -- and recoil is a non-issue.

.
 
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One advantage over the 22lr to me is, how many 22magnum rounds have you ever handled that had a loose bullet to case issue? To me, at least in a small revolver this is a worth while mechanical advantage.
 
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