Why is the military using small calibers?

younggunfreak

New member
I believe that the military is not as effective as it could be, why because it is using small calibers. The reason the military uses the 5.56 is because originally they could use hollow points, then it worked just fine but now that you can't because of the Geneva convention, hollow points are illegal. Why do they still use the 5.56 when they should change to the 6.8 or 6.5? The same thing applies to the 9mm when they should use a 45 acp or a 10mm.
 
I don't believe that the U.S. military ever used 5.56 with hollow points. It was designed after the Geneva Convention. The decision to use the 5.56 was simply to maximize the power for the weight of ammo. You see, a soldier can only carry so much weight in his pack all day every day of a march. The 5.56 ammo weighs 1/2 what the 30-06 does(the 5.56 replaced the 30-06 as the standard issue). That means that the same soldier can carry 400 round of 5.56 versus 200 30-06. Bring more fight for the same energy expended.

Same goes for the 9mm (it also replaced the 45 acp)
 
There are a lot more reasons why the military went to the 5.56 than can be conveniently covered in a forum format.

Low recoil, ease of maintenance, low ammo weight, effective out to 300 meters, all these things mitigate toward the 5.56. Now that the military owns several millions of them, the simple cost of changing platforms would be staggering.

I believe that the military is not as effective as it could be
Yet, we're the peacekeepers of the world. We've got arguably the most effective military that the world has ever seen.

why because it is using small calibers
I don't think that you could call the 120mm gun on the M1 tank a small caliber, just as I don't think that the artillery would consider themselves small bore.

The reason the military uses the 5.56 is because originally they could use hollow points
I'm calling Bull**** on this one. The military uses hollowpoint bullets in certain capacities. For example, the long-range marksmen use hollow point bullets for accuracy.

that you can't because of the Geneva convention, hollow points are illegal
Uuuh, no, that's the Hague Convention. Actually, the Hague Convention disallowed ammo that is constructed to unnecessarily aggravate injuries or make death inevitable. Current hollow point ammo is constructed to maximize accuracy in rifle ammunition.

When did you serve, sir? Might I recommend that you hie yourself down to the local recruiter and sign a contract. Be all you can be. Make the military more effective with your presence.
 
Also, the 5.56mm bullet replaced the .308 cal., which replaced the 30'06.:)
(Ya almost have to have been there to keep up with all this minutiae.)
And another thing, the U.S.A. never signed off on the Hague Declarations; we're just being nice guys and going along with it.
 
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The reason the military uses the 5.56 is because originally they could use hollow points,

Yeah right. :rolleyes:
The agreement to restrict warfare to non-soft point bullets (aka., FMJ) was signed at the First Hague Peace Conference of (29 July) 1899. It kind of pre-dates the Vietnam War, the release of the M-16 rifle, and its 5.56mm cartridge, don't you think?

Edit: Although not a party to this accord, as a matter of policy the United States has acknowledged and respected its applicability in conventional combat operations since its adoption.
 
The reason is using 5.56, opposed to a larger caliber, is more effective for a variety of reasons I wont get into, as the post would be too long and its all been covered before. There are trade offs of course, but overall the benefit has been deemed to outweigh the draw backs. The US has been using the 5.56 since vietnam, and have a pretty good track record in firefights with it, so it has more than proven its worth.

The main criticism of the 5.56 by armchair warriors seems to be that its not a manly mans cartridge, most of these people have never had to hump ammo, or been in a prolonged firefight where volume of fire AND your supply of ammo are critical considerations. That certainly doesnt mean there arent situations where a larger caliber works better.
 
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The Hague outlawed EXPANDING bullets. Expanding bullets have never been used by the military. Some very accurate bullets used by precision shooters have a hollow tip, but they are not expanding bullets. It is just a result of the way they are manufactured.

The 5.56 works just fine when used within it's limitations. Which is where it is used 99.9% of the time. There are times when a larger caliber would work better. But why give our troops a rifle that would be at disadvantage 99.9% of the time and an advantage .1% of the time.

Using that logic we should just issue 50 BMG rifles to all the troops.
 
"I believe that the military is not as effective as it could be"

Because we play by the rules, with our hands tied in most situations. Our enemies don't.
 
Oh man, thanks for the LOL's. Next your gonna tell us about the Mattel made M16s in Vietnam and how the AK can fire "soviet ammo" and "our ammo"
 
Suggest you do some real research, particularly military history, before making the kind of pronouncements you have.

One other thing to consider, the military has NEVER been about using the best gun/cartridge possible. They are about using what works well enough to beat the other guy. And cost.

The decision to go to smaller calibers was based more on what enhanced the effectiveness of the unit than on what was most effective downrange. And its always been that way. Effectiveness of the individual soldier's weapon is only a concern for the individual soldier. The smallest cog in the military machine. The only time the military looks around for a "better" weapon (on the battlefield) is when something "better" is needed to fulfil the mission.

The choice of finding "better " weapons and calibers is always done during peacetime (at least on the home front) and suffers from all the political and economic interference possible.

If you can get the mission done, it doesn't get fixed. It may get improved, over time, but as long as the mission gets done, it doesn't get replaced.

There have been exceptions, but not many.
 
Terminal Ballistics

First off, I whole heartily believe my 5.56 NATO round (Nato, you know our allies who us the same rounds based on an ability to easily resupply allied forces) can kill you deader than your 7.62, 6.8, or 6.5.

Really though, its a great round, when a fast, light round impacts it tumbles and cause extreme damage inside your chest, leg, arm whatever. 7.62, specially FMJ, usually punches straight through. I can stop a sucking chest wound with 1 entry 1 exit. I can't stop two collapsed lungs and massive chest trauma caused by a tumbling round. Which round would you rather be hit by?

Also, I assume your a red blooded tax paying american? Lets assume just army alone, 1 million plus soldiers, get new rifles, granted we can use the existing lower receivers if the army switches to the AR style 6.8 or 6.5 upper. But in fashionable army style, they'll sale the whole weapon to developing third world countries like Iraq, Kenya ect (served in both and know they have surplus m-16's) Lets assume at contract price the army pays 1,500 a rifle, which is very conservative. Thats 1.5 billion for the army alone, give or take a few million.

So I don't need a new rifle, but if your footing the bill I won't argue.
 
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Actually, it was the Hauge convention, not the Geneva convention that outlawed expanding bullets. The United States was not a signatory in the Hauge convention and even if we were, it only really applies to war between formal armies in a formally declared war. Regardless, we have chosen to stay with FMJ ammo out of deference to international politics. The United States military has never, to my knowledge, made extensive use of expanding bullets.

As to the reasons for switching to 5.56x45, well there are a variety of reasons dating back to the 1950's. The 30-06 was originally replaced by the 7.62x51 so that the individual soldier could carry more ammunition without increasing the size and weight of the load. This was a concern after our experiences with Chinese human-wave attacks in Korea. We adopted 7.62x51 in the M14 rifle and decided that adding a selector switch to allow for suppressive fire would also be a good idea.

Unfortunately, the M14 is not all that controllable in full-auto due to the fact that it fires a full-power .30 caliber battle-rifle type cartridge. This is a lesson that had been learned by several other militaries who had tried to adopt full-auto battle rifles such as the FG-42. You see, in order for a battle rifle to be controllable in full-auto, it usually has to be pretty large and heavy like the HK G3 or Sig 510/Stg57. Both the Germans and the Russians learned much earlier than we did that by using an intermediate cartridge, you can have more controllable full-auto fire, carry more ammo for the same size and weight load, and still retain effective ballistics out to normal combat ranges (300-400yd).

The original AR-15 rifles that were used by military advisors in Vietnam actually got pretty good reports because the 5.56/.223 cartridge was plenty effective at the ranges typically encountered in Vietnam. Also, the early versions of the rifle used a 1:14 twist rate in their barrels which just barely stabilized a 55grn bullet. This meant that the bullets would fairly routinely de-stabilize and tumble when they hit their targets causing some pretty gruesome wounds similar to that of the old .303 British Mk VII FMJ. However, in order to both improve long-range accuracy and make use of heavier 62, 69, 75, and 77grn bullets, the twist rate of the rifling has been changed to faster and faster rates such as 1:12, 1:9, 1:8, and 1:7 over the years. These faster twist rates better stabilize the bullets and thus reduce their propensity to yaw.

Personally, I don't think that the 5.56x45 cartridge itself is a problem, I think that the way it is often employed is more the issue. To my mind, the 5.56x45 cartridge employs much the same niche as the submachinegun used to: the ability to lay down suppressing fire at short-to-moderate ranges.

I've actually heard and read very few complaints about the effectiveness of the 5.56 cartridge from the Vietnam-era up to the 1980's, most of the complaints from that time period seem to center around the reliability of the M16 rifle (which is a separate issue in and of itself). Instead, most of the complaints that I hear about the 5.56 cartridge seem to be from the last 10-20 years and usually have to do with the cartridge being used at extended ranges such as those encountered in Afghanistan. The better solution than a wholesale change in caliber, I think, is to simply issue scoped M14's more liberally as designated marksman rifles (similar to the way in which the Russians use the SVD Dragunov). The 5.56 cartridge actually works very well when used as originally intended, its when you try to turn it into something that it was never meant to be that you run into problems.
 
as was stated before you can carry an awful lot of 5.56 ammo. when you need to lay down suppression you need a lot of ammo so 5.56 makes sense

look at platoon level machine guns. An M240B (7.62mm) has a 2-3 man crew plus several other soldiers in the platoon carrying additional ammo for it. because of this there are 2 (3 if your lucky) M240B's at a platoon level.
The M249 (5.56mm) is lighter and has lighter ammo, it can be carried by 1 soldier and a few other guys can hold some extra ammo without difficulty. because the M249 is light, does not require a gun crew, and can carry a lot more ammo per pound you (ideally) have 2 M249s per squad. this means one for every 4 guys. If you are in a firefight the M240B lays down some power for sure but you only have 2 (or 1 or 0). The M249s still provide decent suppression and you can have them all over your line. you can have good suppression up immediately, instead of having to wait for the M240B to get into position from wherever it was before
 
I would like to know how you arrived at the conclusion, "I believe that the military is not as effective as it could be, why because it is using small calibers"
Thanks,
Jerry
 
the effectiveness of the military has nothing to do with the rounds they fire, and everything to do with the government that issues the orders.

the individual soldier's effectiveness is greatly effected by the ammo they are issued, but more so by training and abillity.

in either case the average grunt is effective enough out to 300m with the current ammo/wepon combo (5.56 + m4/m16). More speciallized troops are issued different weapons and ammo for more specified roles outside 300m
 
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