Why is the 2A for everyone except the Blind? According to AZ Shooters World

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BlindMansBluff

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I'm sure these two letters below I wrote to a good friend of mine at the NRA can explain it all. Can some one please spread light that I am not seeing, for lack of a better term. I am still in shock how two face this is.

sent at 2:43PM

I am writing to see what is new?

for me, I just got off the phone about an hour ago, with Jim Gibbs
over at Shooter's World, and after speaking to him I was told that
they would let me (?) take a CCW class.

although we can say, more like they are willing to train me, I am not
the one to argue at this point. oh, I am so happy, overwelmed with
joy, I am. this is somethintg I want bad. not for just the right to
conceal, but for the worth and feeling of accomplishment.

as a blind person I have been laughed out of paun shops, not even
being allowed to see//feel the guns or allowed to buy them being told
they wouldn't sale to a blind person. questioned by other shooter's
and laughed at for my love of the sport shooting, but this allows me
to prove to all, that I can, and I have the ability and skills to hit
ten in the ring of center mass.

Jim told me it wasn't me being blind, or it wasn't my shooting that he
was concerned about, he said being a former FBI Agent, he has been in
and practiced bDark shooting so it is possible. he was just unclear on
AZ DPS requirements etc.

but I've talked to DPS.

Vanessa, the thing that bothers me is we have all these damn gun nuts,
and people who claim to be for 2A rights, as long as you are like
them, or meet their standard. it brings me alot of confusion and you
can even say hurtful emotions when I am laughed at, told that I have
no business owning a gun, because I might shoot myself or some one
else on accident. it just doesn't seem right that people want rights,
yet restrict rights of other, or at least try to.

well, back on a happier note, I took my daughter Kayla, she is now
nine, to her First Shots class, a class given by NSSF and she enjoyed
it. she got 3 shots in center mass using a S&W 317 using single
action. I am proud of her. I have a pic of her on my Iphone, I will
send it soon.

Well hope to talk to you soon.

--
Gabe Vega A+, Net+, ATACP
The Tech of all Techs
http://twitter.com/blindtech
(623) 565-9357
:confused:
 
The Second Letter

Sent at 5:18PM

I just got a call from Andy, a front clerk at Shooter's World. She
told me that after Jim Gibbs talked to the Super Visor of the CCW unit
in AZ over at DPS, that Jim told her to call me and tell me that they
wouldn't be letting me take the class. They said due to the fact that
they are a privately owned company, they don't have to follow the ADA,
and that although they could let me have a reader for the written
test, they won't let me have a spotter for the range test. (which I
never asked for).

i am not understanding how not accomidating me for the range test has
any reason to not being willing to give me the course?

I am speechless, I feel I have been kicked in the stomach.

Vanessa, I have bought amo, 1 or two guns, holsters, amung other
things, as well as been a paying monthly subscription member for about
9 months, and I believe their fear is the liability.

This isn't fair Vanessa. I am asking myself how is this reasonable.
how is this possible. how can you take my money as a company every
month and call me a member and then when I want to get serious about
it all and take a class so important to me just tell me no and thats
the end of it?

Please advise me of what I can do at this point, why is it ok for
shooting sports/self defense places to preach 2A rights as long as
your not disabled, or for that much blind?

I never asked for range accomidations Vanessa, I was going to go in
twice a week, for two hours per session for a month and build up my
mussle memory in order to pass the range test. they pulled that all
out from under me and I am now just sitting here with tears of burning
frustration asking why this is ok? why am I locked out from the Second
Amendment of our Constitution? the one that we all as gun sports
persons claim that we all protect by getting in to the sport?

I am at a loss for words, and I feel very discouraged right now as a
blind person, Jim couldn't even call me himself to tell me he had the
clerk?

Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks for your time.

--
Gabe Vega A+, Net+, ATACP
The Tech of all Techs
http://twitter.com/blindtech
(623) 565-9357
 
Clearifications

1. I never asked for accomidations on the range.
2. the only thing I asked for in regards to my blindness is if they would provide a reader for the written test, or if I had to bring my own. since they said I could bring my own that was fine with me.
3. at the end of the first phone call with Jim, I was excited and this came out of no where, I am not sure what happened between the first and second call.
4. I am still internally confused on why the 2A is for some, and not others, I think that is the most dificult thing to come to terms with right now. Why don't I have the same rights as you? if they were so worried about liability why did they sale me over 1000 dollars in services and equipment, including guns, amo, holsters, speed strips, gun ruck, private training lessons, (one on one) etc?:confused::rolleyes:
 
While I completely agree that you should be able to own and utilize firearms, and you are, I can definitely understand some concerns about concealed carry. Shooting at paper is one thing, shooting at a moving, responding bad guy in a dynamic and dangerous situation with unknown numbers and locations of innocent bystanders is an entirely different thing.

Very much like your right to move about the country is not restricted but you are required to ride a bus or ride in a car with another person and not allowed to have your own drivers license due to concerns for the safety of others.

Your right to own firearms and use them has not been erased but has been amended for the safety of others.

Certainly you have the right to defend yourself. However, I think "reasonable accommodation" goes both ways. You must also make reasonable accommodations for the safety of others in the event that you are forced to defend yourself. I do not understand how exactly that would be accomplished with a firearm since there is no way for you to know the direction, distance or even presence of innocent parties. Your reasonable accommodations may be made my limiting yourself to contact weapons, less than lethal options or essentially having a body guard. While none of those options may be ideal from your perspective, they may be necessary accommodations for the safety of others.
 
It would seem to be that the OP would be better served by contacting an attorney familar with these sorts of issues in the workplace, government licenses and accommodations by business for various difficulties.

That is probably more productive than asking a set of non-experts about our opinion.

If someone has such expertise or knows of a resource for obtaining such, perhaps they might post it.

How the level of handicap interacts with the law and safety is not something we can discern from the posts.
 
I am curious are you "legally blind" but still able to see well enough to hit a target reliably? Or are you completely blind and planning to shoot by sound or using "the force" or some other method?

If you can see well enough to positively identify your target as a threat and place shots reliably on target, I see no reason to deny you access to training/firearms. However if you are actually completely blind, or can not see well enough to tell whether you are shooting at a bad guy, or some random bystander then I completely agree with denying you access to the class, and don't think you should be allowed to carry firearms either.
 
Shooting at paper is one thing, shooting at a moving, responding bad guy in a dynamic and dangerous situation with unknown numbers and locations of innocent bystanders is an entirely different thing.
Click to expand...

So, by that logic we should take his guns away from him at home. He could end up having a bad guy in a dynamic and dangerous situation, where he misses and the bullets go through the walls of his house or apartment.:(

I don't buy it.

Deaf folks have auditory perception well above my own. I actually have less than "average" hearing. I'm still willing to bet that I could be put in a dark room with a target with a speaker in it. Even a moving target. Make it sound like footsteps, or gun shots, or a revolver clicking into engagement, or a bad guy threatening me. I'll hit it in pitch black when it makes noise, from reasonable self defense distances.

Gabe would do even better.

He's NOT going to go out plinking on the sidewalks of Phoenix.

It won't be the OK corral. There won't be blood in the streets.;)

Gabe, if you need help, I'll come to your CCW class and be your target spotter. I'm not terribly well certified, but I am a rifle marksmanship instructor in the Appleseed program as well as an NRA certified Range Safety Officer. So, let them know you have an NRA RSO willing to target-spot for you if necessary, at no cost to them (or you).

This whole episode reflects very poorly on Shooter's World, in my opinion.

How is it appropriate to allow a blind man to buy guns and shoot on your range during public sessions, but not appropriate to allow a blind man to take a class and apply to the state for a CCW permit?

To apply to the state for the permit, you have to:
1. Attend a class of 8 hours
2. Pass a written test
3. Pass a shooting proficiency test.

There are currently no vision impairment (or other sensory deficiency) standards as defined. The state needs to make this call. Not Shooter's World.

Also, Gabe: I have a couple of friends who are CCW instructors. If Shooter's World is not willing to allow you to take the test, then perhaps one of these other instructors would be willing to do so. Let me know if you want to brow-beat Shooter's World, or simply want to go elsewhere.
 
I don't think this will go well. I just see acrimony.

Thus, the OP should follow my suggestion, PM AZrredhawk and talk to relevant professionals. If you obtain reliable info and want to post - PM me and we can add to the thread or reopen it.

Otherwise - closed.

PS: The OP has informed me:

because due to the posting and the publicity of the situation, AZ Shooter's World has changed their position again and have now said I could take the class.
 
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