why is it marginal?

T

tahunua001

New member
hello all,
this is probably going to get heated and closed very early on but I figured I'd ask anyway. I have been noticing an ever increasing number of people with ever increasing standards for a rounds effectiveness. when my family lived in a state without ammo restrictions for hunting we regularly bagged 180LB+ deer with nothing more than american eagle bulk pack 22lr. we weren't forced to rely on head shots, we didn't have to aim for the spine, we didn't have to keep to archery ranges, and we didn't have to track the deer for miles after we took the shot. we just had to get a good broadside shot and know how the bullet would act at the range and angles we were shooting.

when I started hunting I started with my dads 243 and it's killed it's fair share of deer including a 225LB brute who had obviously spent his summers in the pea fields and his winters in the hay barns. I helped my best friend get his first buck using his dads 30-30 and at 200-ish yards(measuring distance across a canyon was difficult without a rangefinder) he got a 200 pound 3x3 whitetail. my brother has been stealing my AR15 for his deer seasons as of late and at 250 yards(we google mapped it) he got a 200 pound 5x5 whitetail.

all of these shots were single shots to the textbook kill zone and yet all of these rounds have been called marginal for whitetail at one point or another and it has me stumped. who decides what makes a round marginal?

EDIT: any references to 22LR are meant to emphasize that a less suited round than the centerfire rounds(which are the main center of this conversation) is capable of doing the job.
 
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OK so lets start right in, large deer with a .22 using body shots???? Really? You need somebody to actually tell you that's less than sporting? About how far did the average animal walk around before it finally bled to death???
 
OK so lets start right in, large deer with a .22 using body shots???? Really? You need somebody to actually tell you that's less than sporting? About how far did the average animal walk around before it finally bled to death???
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the farthest we had to track when I was allowed to come along was an antelope that made it 200 yards. and I dont reallt consider a 180 pound plains muley to be a large deer :D
 
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Here in OK. a .223 is the minimum for deer. I was brought up to use a .22lr for small game and to use on a trapline so as not ruin more fur than necessary. A .22lr out of a rifle placed into the ear of a coyote is effective at point blank range.

Around here the only people that I know who hunt deer with a .22lr or .22wmr are the poachers.
 
who decides what makes a round marginal?
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Mostly people who would rather shoot than hunt. ;)

I have seen the same people say that a 44 mag is perfectly adequate for 100 yard deer hunting (800 ft-lbs. @ 100 yds.), when a .243 is marginal, with 1,000 ft-lbs. at 400 yards!
 
The deer have been getting tougher in the last several years. If you're not shooting a .405 Eargensplitten Loudenboomer, you're woefully under gunned.

I've seen deer killed with a .22LR, a ~140 lb doe at a range of about five yards. The largest hog I ever killed (field-dressed at 350 lbs) was killed with a .22LR handgun at a range of about five feet.

No one is saying that small calibers aren't capable of taking game. But, shots like those are left for experts, and in an internet forum it's hard to tell who is an actual expert and who is simply talking smack through their keyboard. Would I recommend that people hunt deer with a .22LR? Never. It's probably illegal in most states and there are much better cartridges. Is is possible? Sure it's possible. I have a buddy who used to shoot deer with the .22-250. He had a custom rifle built and was able to make eye shots out to about 150 yards. So, he'd simply shoot them in the eye. Bang, flop. Was that cartridge marginal? Not for him.

If someone asks me on an internet forum, I'll tell them that the .22 cartridges are marginal for deer-sized game. I consider the .223 marginal for 150 lb deer, although the US has been killing 150 lb adversaries with that cartridge for years.
 
It's not marginal. It's inadequate. Not inadequate as in not capable of killing deer, but inadequate as in no margin for error in placement, penetration, expansion, range etc.

A Daisy BB gun will kill under the right conditions, but it's adequate only for sparrows.
 
I also would not recommend a 22lr and I am by no means an expert. my rifle skills are just barely adequate for hunting out to 300 yards and sub par on paper. I'm just saying that even novice shooters like myself have had decent results with rounds like the 30-30 and 243 despite the fact that they are "marginal" and "underpowered".
 
tahunua001 said:
decent results with rounds like the 30-30 and 243 despite the fact that they are "marginal" and "underpowered".
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Neither the .30-30 nor the .243 are marginal for whitetail deer. I would bet that the .30-30 has taken more deer than any other cartridge popularly used in the US. The .243 was designed as a multi-purpose cartridge and is eminently suited for deer.
 
"A 243 is a marginal round for deer only in the hands of a marginal shooter." - Karle Woodward

People want to justify why they bought a 300 magnum for deer. I used to have one myself and it did kill them dead just as my 45/70 has. But a 243 or 30/30 will do the same and there is nothing marginal about it. Deer aren't armored. Their ribs aren't thick, even on the 300 pounders. The projectile type and quality and shot placement are key.
 
Killing a deer with a .22 is just wrong. Please use something that would cause less suffering to the animal.
 
all of these shots were single shots to the textbook kill zone and yet all of these rounds have been called marginal for whitetail at one point or another and it has me stumped. who decides what makes a round marginal?
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Hopefully common sense will prevail and tell you what rounds are marginal. I’m not saying anything but the .22 LR you stated was a marginal cartridge for deer sized game. Before the advent of the internet most people got their knowledge of bullets and bullet construction for their father, or mentor. If they didn’t know any better the people they taught didn’t either.

So if a .22 LR was used successfully then it was good enough. A lot of the decision to use these cartridges was decided on by the amount of respect one had for the animal being perused as well. I’m sure many of the deer shot at were lost to use of cartridges such as the .22 LR or rimfire, because the shooter didn’t have enough respect for the animal to track it if it didn’t die in a reasonable distance.

My state of Colorado has restrictions on firearms and bows regarding what can and can’t be used. I think that this was instituted to reduce the amount of shot and lost game. Do I agree with all the regulations? No as I think some are a bit out of date. With today’s premium bullets the smaller centerfire cartridges are up to the task on deer sized game. I do however think the state had good reason to make these restrictions as when these were put in place; most hunters at that time bought what was available and hunted with it with little thought to the type of bullet being used or realistic capabilities of the cartridge.

Of course I still feel if the hunter respects the game he/she hunts they will use an appropriate bullet and cartridge combination and will take shots that offer them the best chance of cleanly killing an animal. I’ve hunted long enough even the chip shots sometimes don’t turn out as expected. I’ve done my fair share of tracking or chasing animals that were shot poorly by me or others I’ve hunted with to know that nothing is guaranteed until the animal is down and back in camp.

I tend to stick with traditional thinking when it comes to selecting a bullet. I’ll use a medium to heavy for caliber bullet if I use standard cup and core bullets depending on game size the larger the game the heavier the bullet. With bullets that are bonded core or partition style I’ll stick with medium weight bullets if they shoot accurately. With mono metal bullets I try to stick with a bullet that is around 75-80% of the weight I’d normally shoot with a standard cup and core bullet. So if I shoot a 180 grain .308 diameter bullets for elk hunting the lightest I’d use would be around 135 grains in a mono metal bullet.
 
22lr shouldn't have been mentioned
but as far as the other cartridges you mentioned:


Because deer like to be shot, with a big hole and bleed out or drown in their own blood, in case the hunter misses the heart.... they also die in comfort knowing the hunter will be able to find the carcass sooner, with the bloody trail and all.....They like it almost as much as being shot with an arrow.....
 
I'm really not pushing the 22lr in this discussion. I was mearly trying to point out that many hunter have used it with consistent result while others are vehemently say that 223, 243, 7.62x39 and 30-30 are all poor choices and not suitable for anything larger than a skunk.
 
W.D.M. Bell hunted-very succesfully-elephants with a 7MM Mauser, but he was a much better hunter than I'll ever be. Speaking as a non hunter, IMHO
certain rounds are specified as legal or not for hunting based on sporting concepts such as a humane kill, and also whether ordinary and average shooters can handle them. As we have discussed many times in the Handgun forums, the 22LR can be an effective self defense round, but it shouldn't be a first choice when more effective ones are available.
 
The 30-30 drops like a rock and drifts in the wind like a balloon, it's down to 900 ft lbs and won't expand a big game softpoint at 200 yds, so it's inhumane at that distance.
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LOL... It's classified information, but you can actually zero 30-30 rifles at the ridiculous distance of 200 yards. As to your "won't expand a big game softpoint" you've obviously never field dressed a deer killed at 200+ yards with one.

Thanks for the laugh, anyhow ;)
 
LOL... It's classified information, but you can actually zero 30-30 rifles at the ridiculous distance of 200 yards. As to your "won't expand a big game softpoint" you've obviously never field dressed a deer killed at 200+ yards with one.

Thanks for the laugh, anyhow
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agreed, I helped my buddy field dress that deer he shot from across the canyon with his dad's 30-30 and it did a very decent job of shredding the lungs and cause a bit of bloodshot
 
I have used a .223 to kill deer for most of my adult life. I load the 65gr. gameking just for that purpose. Every one that I shot with that caliber has been killed without issue. I dont see what the big deal is because it basically boils down to skill level. I dont have a problem hitting what Im shooting at out to distances I know I can hit. Different strokes people. I dont think a .22lr should be a deer round but I have personally seen deer killed with one shot from a .22 pistol.

tahunua you just need to not give a crap what people think and do your thing. Especially internet wannabe's.
 
22LR ????

I grew up in the Mid-West where you hunted deer with shotguns loaded with slugs (foster type, this was before Sobot slugs) and taken 2 deer with this set-up. Since then I have used 6 mm Rem, 30-30, 35 Rem (in a TC super-14) 303 British, 308 Win, 7.62X39, 6.8 SPC, 44 Mag, 357 Mag, and 45-70. The expieriences that I have has shown me that the 22 LR is not the best cartridge to take a deer size animal. Yes it can be done, but I think it should be done by only expert hunters and Master marksmen. The best hunts and the most comfortable set-up for me, with the most confidence was the 303 British No.5 Enfield and the 44 Mag Win. 94. Most of my Deer hunting has been in West Virginia and Indiana, and the Deer get pretty good size. I am a good marksman, but even I would not even consider a 22 lr for deer, it is just not enough to take a deer humanly. Even the .223 Rem is to light, but it has been done. But we have rember as hunters we have to have ethic, and ethics of a hunter is to take game as effectively and as humanely as we can, by using enough gun (rifle type and caliber with practiced accuracy) on our hunts and to harvest the game with out letting it suffer un-neccessaryly.

J. Budd
 
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