Why Hornady is Starting to get on my Nerves!

[stagpanther]

I recently added Pressure trace to labradar as yet another instrument to help me fine tune my hand-loading--and I had to take apart a couple of my AR10 platform rifles in order to get strain gages attached to the barrel. I'm starting off with my 260 rem and 6mm creedmoor builds.

Part of the problem is that I don't know exactly what baseline to calibrate Pressure Trace to in order to get a fair idea of the pressure ranges I get on read-out, so I decided to go with hornady factory ammo since I knew what some of their pressure read-outs were. I also had some new hand-loads which I wanted to simply see if I could get ballpark pressure read-outs that were close to what QL forcasted.

Although I wasn't concentrating on accuracy--upon retrieving my targets I was a bit perplexed to see that the hornady factory ammo consistently turned in a sub-MOA grouping no matter what type of ammo I used every time--while my hand-loads only did so when pushing towards redline.

The really interesting part was labradar confirmed that all of the shots of hornady factory stuff were less than 50 fps off from the claimed velocity on the boxes. The pressure trace turned in traces that were also just 4 thousand psi off from what I was told their psi rating was. This is pretty remarkable since I had mounted the gages on the barrels in the less-optimal position of in front of the case mouth.

The traces themselves showed a remarkable consistency in the the nice, smooth curves which overlaid one another very closely--once again showing a remarkable repeatability in performance. Most of all, they get this with pressure ratings which are well below anything approaching a max value you would need to dabble with in order to get in range of their velocities.

All of this I think confirms what I've seen as a trend in their factory ammo over the last 5 to ten years or so--the same bullets and cartridges are improving in their factory ammo--so they must be really getting VERY good at optimizing their powder formulations. That reduced pressure also helps in reducing the wear and tear on the rifle's parts (as well as the shooter).

These guys are starting to make me look bad.

 

[hounddawg]

interesting thread, I have been interested in trying some of Hornadys new bullets in .223, I could probably find some of the loaded ammo locally to experiment with.

I bought some factory loaded 55 grain .223 Lapua because I found them for the same price as Larry is asking for empty Lapua cases. Not my best groups ever but they were great wind training at 300 and I have another 150 to play with.

$31.50 for for 50 round box of 55 grain .223 Lapua ammo, shipped next business day

http://ammunitionstore.com/categories/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56x45mm.html

 

[stagpanther]

Well, I don't think the results were due to me becoming a worse hand-loader--though that could be possible (everything else is going downhill the older I get). But the preliminary results I got through labradar and Pressure Trace show a remarkable consistency and efficiency of the Hornady formulations as read-out by both instruments. Jim at Pressure Trace pointed out to me that there are certain very well known and respected makers of ammo that when you get a pressure reading--which is not simply peak at the chamber but theoretically how the curve "follows" the bullet down the bore and out the muzzle--you can still get remarkable accuracy at the target--but secondary "irregularities" could be happening along the pressure curve without the user even knowing about it. There is an example of that on the RSI webpage. I hope unclenic sees this and perhaps makes an observation--I have to admit I'm still entirely new to pressure trace.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Drives me nuts, as well.

Their .444 Marlin Superformance load (265 FP), in particular, irritates me.
It shoots one-hole groups in my custom Marlin 444.
My handloads... Not a chance. I'm lucky to get 2.5-3" at 100 yards.
But toss some of the Superformance factory stuff in there, and it's literally a one-hole group with SDs around 5-6 fps. (If I can find one of the targets, I'll post a photo.)

 

[stagpanther]

I'm not really a Hornady Fanboy--or wasn't--but results are results, and hard to ignore consistency. As Franken points out--even their bullets that don't necessarily have needle-nose BC's they still manage to get remarkable efficiency out of.

 

[Chainsaw.]

I recently bought a savage in 6.5 ceedmoor, tge hornady factory ammo will consistantly shoot one hole groups if I do my part. I have not been able to come even close to that with my hand loads. Best hand koads Ive gotten were 1" @ 100.

I dont want to have to just buy ammo!

 

[stagpanther]

I recently bought a savage in 6.5 ceedmoor, tge hornady factory ammo will consistantly shoot one hole groups if I do my part. I have not been able to come even close to that with my hand loads. Best hand koads Ive gotten were 1" @ 100.

I can occassionally get down around .5 MOA if I'm lucky with a hand-load--but usually a good hand-laod for me is .75 MOA

 

[FrankenMauser]

Just to add an additional factor:
The 444 Marlin Superformance load mentioned before also exceeds all other factory and handload velocities by 100+ fps.
Nothing comes close to it.

To make matters worse, I get better velocities with a 19" barrel than most guys with unmolested barrels (22").
It does everything I need it to do, and then some.
But I don't want to buy factory ammo!

 

[stagpanther]

I got my first hint of their "reformulation revolution" some years ago when they came out with the budget American Whitetail ammo. I saw a box of it at Dick's for under $20 for the 300 win mag which seats the interloc. I've loaded the interloc for years--mostly as a "close range equivalent of Core Lokt." I took my savage 111 hunter out and just for S&Gs I put the target box out to 489 yds--with the 12x scope I could barely make out the dark silhouette of the entire 1ft sq target at that distance. I dialed the scope in using Hornady's velocity and drop estimations from their box and fired off a few shots--I had no idea if they were impacting anywhere even near the box--didn't see any dirt puffs. When I walked out to the box my jaw dropped in disbelief--all three shots grouped on target sub-MOA at just over 4"

 

[Unclenick]

I expect Hornady has figured out OCW loads. I wish the Pressure Trace had dual inputs so you could put a second gauge at the muzzle to get measured barrel time rather than an estimate from reported velocity. That number would tell you something about the powder behavior.

I also expect that, like car makers, Hornady is applying some form of statistical quality control to gradually reduce variations in their products. But all that said, lots of handloaders make bughole ammunition, too. The trick is working out what you are missing.

 

[stagpanther]

... The trick is working out what you are missing.

Good way to put it--that's what I'm beginning to piece together with instruments like labradar and PT--though there's still a boatload I have to learn with hand-loading tools and techniques.

PS--I looked at the OCW link--about half way down I noticed the reference to the "initial shock wave" is this the same thing that RSI hints at in "the P wave" that goes to muzzle and back?

 

[reinert]

Unclenick,

I clicked on the "OCW loads" site you posted. Thanks for that; I believe I'll be roaming around in there for a while.

 

[Unclenick]

Stagpanther,

Yes, it's all the pressure wave (compression wave) initiated at firing. Dr. Lloyd Brownell mentioned it first in his 1965 study. They travel at the speed of sound in a barrel, which is in the range of 15 times faster than sound in air, so they traverse the barrel end-to-end about a dozen times while the bullet is still in it. It is a less dramatic influence than the one reavealed by an Audette Ladder, and my best guess is that when you get one of those loads that works well over a wide range of charge weights that you have probably got an Optimum Barrel Time and the old Audette Ladder flat spot synchronized.

 

[stagpanther]

Today went out and shot a "mini ladder" of 5 different charge weights for my 6mm creed--unfortunately both the superformance powder and 103 eld's were at the end of my supply. Most of the groups hovered around MOA +/---but 44 grs came together OK--but still not the same measured consistency as the hornady factory ammo.

 

[hounddawg]

Cortina's 100 yard load development basically uses the same principles as Newberry's OCW method.

With Newberry you align vertical and horizontal impacts from different loads to find zones of similar placement. I never had much luck with coloring the tips of my bullets then sorting out the green red blue bulletholes at the target itself. If one wanted to go that route the Ontarget software system would be useful. I am using it along just starting Cortina's 100 Yard Load development method.

With Cortina's method you find flat spots in the velocities, which I imagine is what Newberry's method does. Just Newberry's method uses bullet impact zones without using a chronograph. The hoped for result using either is to find a weight tolerant zone and powder where you can be off .1 from the previous shot and still be close to the previous velocity and impact area providing all other factors are close .

I ran my first real test of Cortinas method yesterday and was pleased with the results. I shot 96% with a 50 percent X count which about my norm. I screwed the mirage up on one shot and pulled a second due to the loose nut behind the trigger. Nine of the ten shots are close to same vertically though. Wind and mirage can screw up a target horizontally but if you have a tight vertical centered on the X you will get a decent if not great score

https://i.imgur.com/SA8qVCT.jpg


Anyway with you having a Labradar the Cortina method might be the trick

 

[stagpanther]

I used to do the Newbury/OCW and I too had issues with both coloring the bullets as well as drawing out the ladder--it was OK and it did show the area where the harmonics would come together, but a bit of a PITA for me (meaning I'm lazy). I'll check out the one you mention--thanks.

 

[gwpercle]

Back in the day any handloader with a Lee Whack - a- Mole loader could come up with something to better factory loads....Not any more !
I now shoot some factory loads and try to come up with a load that will do as well.
Yes.....them factory guys are giving us handloaders a bad name.

And some of the factory rifles....sub MOA and good triggers right off the assembly line is now common
.... I Love It !
Gary

 

[hounddawg]

Stag if you have been keeping all your chrono data just go back and look for flat spots and low SD's in your velocity. If you find a node .3 grains wide or better with similar velocities exploit it. With the load I shot on that target were thrown on a powder throw and not trickled. I did pop each one on a electronic scale long enough to verify that is was in that range but that is all.

36.2	36.4	36.6	36.8	37	37.2	37.4	37.6	37.8  Grains of Varget
												
2560	2593	2602	2604	2627	2636	2619	2648	2688	2674  Velocity
8	4	6	11	9	11	22	8	0	8     SD

I meant to throw 36.5 but with the way that target ended up I am not pulling any bullets from what I have already loaded. Actually anywhere between 36.4 and 36.7 would be good