Why FMJ only for the military?

M

migrantmigraine

New member
I'm wondering why there's still a ban on hollow-point/frangible bullets (whatever they call 'em) for modern armies. I don't understand why a hollow point 9mm is more inhumane than a daisy cutter/smart bomb. To be perfectly honest, I don't see the logic of it being cruel to use a bullet type which kills better (generally speaking) when your main object is killing people. How humane are hand grenades?
 
http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html

"Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body" adopted at the First Hague Peace Conference of (29 July) 1899 which states:

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
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Although not a party to this accord, as a matter of policy the United States has acknowledged and respected its applicability in conventional combat operations since its adoption more than one century ago.

...
On 12 October 1990, another Memorandum of Law from Parks at the request of the Commander of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) and coordinated with the Department of State, Army General Counsel, as well as the Offices of the Judge Advocates General of the Navy and Air Force, concluded that:

"The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. ... Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United States Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. (The Sierra #2200 BTHP) not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat."
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Most of which the army found to their advantage (usually). Kill one soldier and you take one out of action. Wound one soldier and you take at least two out of action: One wounded and at least one to take care of him.
 
"Kill one soldier and you take one out of action. Wound one soldier and you take at least two out of action: One wounded and at least one to take care of him."

I doubt that this is as true now as it has been in the past. We now face enemies who are so overpopulated that human life is simply one of the cheapest commodities going, or who are willing to kill themselves outright, just so long as they take an American with them.

On the other hand, it *is* true of us (as it should be). The western world seems to be somewhat unique these days in actually caring about the lives of its fighting forces.

Tim
 
The FMJ also takes care of another consideration other than wound profile - military ammo has to be more rugged than civilian ammo. It is capable of being belt fed, must work in automatic weapons, at all temperatures and under all conditions. FMJ just helps it achieve that, in addition to tougher brass, crimp, primer crimp, etc.
 
Somalia, US Rangers and Delta Force shoot the standard 5.56mm NATO. Bullet goes right through their targets and their targets just keep on shooting, so I say in times like that its better if their dead than just wounded. All these damn UN regulations on what we can shoot or cant shoot is total and utter bs. If im shooting back at people trying to kill me, I want to put them down by dealing as much damage as I can to them rather than just punching a neat little hole that isnt gonna do much unless hit in a vital spot.
 
nobody really wants to relinquish the moral high ground by denouncing these agreements in return for minimal concrete gains. They can get performance improvements from work which doesn't break the letter of the agreements, like the SS109 bullet.
To get a new type of bullet to work reliably in a wide variety of weapons and meet the STANAG agreements takes a lot of work and bargaining and if nobody else is set up to make the stuff then you are limited to domestic sources, i.e. Lake City Ordnance plant, only. And it's nothing to do with the UN.
Heck, most of it is going to be fired in machine guns anyway.
Recently the U.S. has bought 5.56mm from Israel and Britain.
 
I was doing some reading on this topic on another website, and the author stated that some special forces outfits use hollowpoints in their pistols.
 
As BigG pointed out, I think alot has to do with sometimes questioable feeding and cycling of SP's.

What I question is research to find bullets that fragment, destabilize, crumple or whatever when it hits a person, because SP's are inhumane and not allowed in war :rolleyes:
 
As was mentioned, iut's spelled The Geneva Conventions.

This aside, .303 ammunition used by the Brits was FMJ, it was also gyrospically unstable, which is to say that FMJ or otherwise, IT TUMBLES AFTER HITTING SOMETHING, LIKE A HUMAN BODY, makes a hellish wound too.

I believe that at least some U.S. service ammunition was similarly designed. It too tumbles. Some Russian Issue Ammunition did the same thing, BEING SO DESIGNED AND MANUFACTURED.
 
As it happens, though, almost all bullets will tumble after hitting something, especially at short range before they have had time to stabilize. General Hatcher, in his Notebook, showed a picture of two sawed-open pieces of thick oak, shot with M2 ball cartridges at (as I recall) about 50 and 200 yards. The 50 yard shot veers off almost immediately and penetrates a foot or two, while the 200 yard shot, well-stabilized, penetrates about 36 inches.

Tim
 
History and the way to wage a fair and humane war?

I think a lot has to do with history........the Geneva Conventions.....and politics....


We could look at a bunch of things that have been stated........ from shooting one troop takes 2 to carry him out - right to the FMJ hold up better under harsh field conditions of war. I agree with all of them to a point. All make a strong and true statement as well. I just think the politics part of war and the way so-called civilized nations wage it might still rule. Do politics of that nature belong in war? I would say no at first until looking at it in depth. Civilized nations try to do things in more fair and less cruel ways. I don't see the real difference in Civil war fighting but today I can reason with it a little more. Medics on the battlefield have more ability to get the wounded quickly to a field hospital for care. Modern medicine also saves those who would have been lost in previous wars.


Do the enemy forces play by the rules for these reasons? I would guess not. They shoot whatever firearms and ammunition they can obtain. If the only stuff they could get was JHP, we could be sure they would be shooting it anyhow. In this much different type of enemy and war it might be a good time to reconsider just why we wouldn't want to eliminate the enemy combatant once and for all. Why shoot them in a humane manner so as to take care of them, detain them and see them in 6 months again shooting at our troops? Seems JHP might be worth a reconsideration? Ok, flame me if you wish......... I stand firm on my thoughts.
 
Here's the full document on US sniper use of open-tip ammo, dated September 1985:

http://www.thegunzone.com/opentip-ammo.html

Here's a photo of one size of Sierra MatchKing boat-tail hollow point, the type of bullet in use by the US Military:

92846.jpg
 
I think they identified the problem in somalia as using a round and barrel length combination that left the bullet stable and moving *too slowly* to tumble on impact. Didn't "they"?
 
Just another though. How does SP/HP's work against body armor, or light cover? I would think that FMJ would be better for those reasons.
 
When I was in the Army, we had just recently started using the 5.56mm round. We were told that it was in large part to circumvent the ban on frangible bullets. As explained to us, the previously used 7.62 nato round in fmj would penetrate straight through, often leaving enemy combatants wounded but still fighting.

The 5.56mm round though was much smaller and lighter and moving faster and thus less stable after impact, and would immediately start tumbling upon impact. We were told of a not unusual type of a wound where the bullet entered at the thigh and tumbled up into the torso cause great damage and death. Converseley 7.62 round in the same location would have made a 7.62 hole through the thigh coming and going.

This rationale may not be true, after all it was the Army telling us this :) . But if true then the use of the smaller faster less stable round was in effect stepping through a legal loophole to get the same effect as hollow points or frangible rounds, while maintaining the reilability factor plus allowing the grunt to carry more ammunition. A triple bonus if you will.
 
Butch, it was the RIFLING TWIST on the original M16 that made the bullet unstable. It was 1:12 which was just enough to make a 55 gr M193 accurate but would rapidly destabilize if it encountered resistance. When they went to make it more accurate in cold weather they had to go to a quicker twist. The M855 bullet actually busts in half at the cannelure and provides some better carnage than a normal FMJ would. So we are within the letter of the law but pushing the envelope as far as the spirit.
 
Somalia, US Rangers and Delta Force shoot the standard 5.56mm NATO. Bullet goes right through their targets and their targets just keep on shooting
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it's been a while since i've read the book but i believe they were talking specfically about shugahart(sp) who was using an m14 (or maybe an m1a) with ap ammo that just slid right through the targets. not the standard fmj ball ammo
 
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