Why even make the bullet FMJ?

B

brandon_h3

Moderator
Everybody says that the old 8mm ammo isn't good for knocking down living creatures quickly and efficently because its all FMJ and doesn't expand upon impact. Why produce a round that won't expand when it hits a target (like a human)? I mean this gun was for war purposes, and if it's not good for knocking down humans, why use it in any war situation? I don't get it. The ammo I purchased was surplus ammo and could have been used in wartime. Can someone clear this up for me?? That really has me perplexed. Was it possibly to penetrate hardened targets like walls?

By the way, is 8mm AP ammo capable of shooting thru an engine block? I was told it is. Is that true?
 
It's because such rounds are not effective, and are, in fact, banned by treaty.

If you shoot an enemy with a hydra-shok and tear him in half, he's dead, that's it, but if you punch a hole in him, you not only take him out of action, but it requires two men to drag him to a field hospital, a surgeon to operate on him, nurses to attend to him, antibiotics to treat him, extra food, etc.

You may have heard the term "amateurs talk about tactics, professionals talk about logistics". Well, this is an example of where logistical concerns conflict directly with tactical concerns, but in the end, which one is most effective?
 
the St Petersburg Declaration of 1868 and the Hague Declaration of 1898 effectively outlawed the use of explosive projectiles or ones which inflicted undue suffering in war. The Hague Convention of 1909 also touched obliquely on the matter. All the great European powers broke these agreements in WW1 and most were to break them again in WW2. By this time the use of explosive projectiles in aerial warfare was tacitly condoned and if you happened to strafe someone on the ground with them that was just too bad. Despite the various violations over the years most armies today keep to the letter of these accords although the spirit has subverted by the various attempts to increase the lethality of ball ammunition in recent decades.
 
brandon_h3: The reason if I am not mistaken is because of the Hague Convention which banned the use of expanding bullets in warfare with those nations that signed it (I could be wrong on this, that is just what I remember). This was an attempt to have a humane war I guess. To this day, the US military uses FMJ ammo. One thing to keep in mind, this FMJ is deadly and will easily kill any man on earth; or any animal for that matter. It's use in hunting however is discouraged because it might not put an animal down as fast as an expanding bullet would. FMJ in an 8mm would just punch a pencil sized hole clear through the target. Obviously this is deadly and if placed in the right spot it would be deadly very quickly. But by using an expanding bullet you increase the size of the wound channel causing more tissue damage and blood loss resulting in a quicker more humane kill. It also leaves more blood on the ground so that you can track the animal and find it after it expires. Most hunters don't want to see an animal suffer needlessly and using the best bullet possible is the second best way we can ensure this other than shot placement.
No an 8mm Mauser will not go through an engine block. It might knock off a nice sized piece of metal, but that is about it.
 
brandon,

Also, check the Game & Hunting laws of your state.

In my home state of Missouri it is ILLEGAL to hunt game with "non-expanding" ammo, i.e., any bullet not having either a hollow point, or exposed lead at the tip.

Note: this does not apply to shotguns or rimfire used for birds and small game.

Swampy
 
Ironic

You can't legally hunt an animal with FMJ ammo because it isn't humane but you can't legally wage war with SP or HP ammo because it will cause too much suffering. I think that there are two things going on here. It is likely that there are more wounded soldiers (more survivors) because of FMJ ammo that are taken out of the fight but not killed because of the relatively clean wound created by this bullets. In the era of super high velocity small caliber rounds that deliver devasting hydrostatic shock I'm not sure the same theory holds true. I suspsect feed reliability is also a concern since SP or HP ammo is more likely to hang up. In any case, in this age of land mines and carpet bombing it seems like folly to worry about inflicting "undue suffering" on the enemy. I would personally want to have the most immediately lethal ammo available. The logistical theory may or may not be true, I've heard it repeated for years. Seems unlikely though. If an enemy soldier isn't knocked out of the fight as quickly as possible, he may still have the ability to wound friendly troops which negates the so-called advantage of his survival causing him to be a drain on the resources of his side. I think that it is more likely that it is the result of an effort to kill people nicely.
 
A wounded enemy is better than a dead one anyway. Awounded enemy must be dragged back to the hole (2 healthy soldiers?), given aide(supplies and money?), tended to by more people...

Point is, a wounded soldier requires a lot more resources for the enemy.... resources that must be taken away from fighting you.

A dead soldier would be left until resources would not be hindered.

Best, -Coop
 
Deer don't hide behind hard cover. Military ammo needs to be versatile, and usefull for detroying equipment, or penetrating a variety of barriers and then killing. FMJ does just that. Also, modern FMJ is actually quite frangible at close range (the jacket rips off and the bullet breaks apart violently in tissue). Functionality in a full auto weapon is another issue.
8mm Mauser knocked down a lot of British and American boys just fine. About shooting through an engine block: even .223 will crack the water jacket or head on most vehicles. You won't penetrate the whoe block (through the cylinders and out the other side), but you don't need to. Break the head, electrical systems or cooling system and the vehicle isn't going to work for very long.
 
One thing I think people are often missing as far as the legal restrictions on hunting with FMJ ammo is the fact that it penetrates so much that it greatly increases the risk of possibly going on and injuring/killing another hunter.
Its got alot of power behind it, doesn't expand, and keeps right on going, even through bushes and so on, therefore causing greater safety concerns.
 
8mm Mauser will kill a deer or elk or a grizzly bear for that matter, but not quickly. In the case of a grizzly, the hunter would probably be dead for several days before the grizzly died of the gangrene.

Most soldiers (99% or so) who are shot by FMJ rounds even in the torso will survive provided they are dragged to the Battalion Aid Station before they expire. There isn't a B.A.S. for the deer or elk or whatever that runs away with a mortal, but not instantaneously fatal, wound.

Semper fi,
Bruegger out.
 
IIRC there was another thread on the use of FMJ and the different treaties. Again IIRC it was not so much requiring the use of FMJ as it was banning the use of so called "dum-dums" I don't remember exactly but a search may turn it up. I think that also the treaties definition of "dum-dum" was not what most would think.......it was more of a doctored round that a commercially produced one. Again IIRC the US did not sign the treaty but does abide by it. I also seem to recall that some HP rounds are legal, and again if my old memory serves me correctly there was a post in that thread saying that some military snipers were using the Sierra 168 MatchKing. Don't take that for gospel, but I seem to recall reading that and was as surprised as the next man.

Of course all the posts here are correct, about the quick put downs of a true hunting bullet compared to FMJ. I do know that here in Louisiana they are illegal for hunting use.

One other reason for the military using FMJ is the improved reliability in feeding over SP in full/semi auto arms.

As far as an 8MM AP punching right through an engine block..........it's not likely, but with some of the new aluminum block engines and hitting it in the right spot its POSSIBLE.........not likely but possible. I can almost assure you though that it's gonna fix any engines clock! If it does not kill it dead on the spot it will be like a heart shot deer............it ain't going far. Five or six under the hood and a mag full into the interior of any unarmored vehicle will fix a lot of clocks. Both mechanical critters and.............2 or 4 legged critters.
 
The "dumdum" was a bullet with an exposed lead tip produced in an aresenbal at Dum-Dum India for the old 303 (if i recall correctly).

There were stories of soldiers so sold on the idea they were ctuuting the points off their bullets, resulting in the jacket seperating IN or just beyound the bore and taking accuracy for naught.

There are stories of GI's cutting x' on their 45 ammo etc as well.. I doubt it really increased effectiveness at all.

On another note hunting ammo is more expensive to create over the average FMJ, again logistics of cost over lethality.. irregardless of treaties etc.

Hunting with non expanding bullets is a no-no on big game in Colorado too.
 
me thinks the field soldier prefers the enemy dead

not waiting evac with a rifle at hand
 
Hey folks,

Full metal jacket ammo is also quite effective on body armor. Kevlar vests that will stop pistol and hunting bullets actually provide little protection when hit with full metal jacket rifle ammunition. Hence, if you want to hunt for deer, use expanding bullets, but, if you want to kill a human who is wearing body armor, use a rifle with full metal jacket bullets.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile
 
Dave-
Bullet shape or construction has very little effect on penetration of a kevlar vest; the important variable is velocity. Handguns at 1600 fps and down won't penetrate no matter the bullet type. Just about any sort of bullet at 2000 plus will. Tests have shown a 44 cal nylon wadcutter at 2500 fps blowing through a level 3 vest.
So, if you're up against people in kevlar, use a rifle and whatever ammo is handy. Even extremely fragile varmint bullets will do just fine.
 
That business about "two men to carry the wounded" is silly. In spite of movie nonsense about tears and crying over a wounded buddy, no one stopped in the middle of a battle to carry off wounded; they were left for the medics.

As to 90% survival when shot in the torso with a FMJ bullet, I doubt that very much. I knew many vets of WWII who had been shot with 8mm or 6.5 or 7.7 Japanese in the legs or arms. I knew some who had been shot in the torso with 9mm. I did not know anyone who had been shot in the body with an 8mm or the equivalent.

The major wounding is not from bullet expansion but from the shock waves generated in the body tissue by a supersonic projectile. Expansion by itself means nothing. If a 9mm expands to .45 caliber, it is no more effective than a .45 at the same velocity. But to expand, the 9mm has to have a high velocity and it is that that causes the severe wound, not the bullet expansion.

Jim
 
Nothing to add but does anyone else find it absurd that using a JHP causes "undue suffering", but burning someone alive via napalm is ok?
 
RAE, the whole notion of "humane" in the context of weaponry of war is absurd. It doesn't matter whether it's rock, sword, spear, gun, bombs of whatever sort: Show me "humane".

:), Art
 
db4, bullet shape and construction do too have effect on ability to penetrate kevlar...The velocity helps, dont get me wrong, but I've loaded and shot 45 ACP's that will penetrate two panels of kevlar at only 900 fps or so...

The lower the velocity, the more important is bullet shape and construction...
 
Tests have shown a 44 cal nylon wadcutter at 2500 fps blowing through a level 3 vest.
Click to expand...

What tests are you referring to? Do you have a reference?

Handguns at 1600 fps and down won't penetrate no matter the bullet type. Just about any sort of bullet at 2000 plus will.
Click to expand...

You left out 400fps in there. Are bullets in that area considered marginal?

Since you say handguns...if we were to load the bullet in the SS109 5.56mm round, the green tip AP type with the steel bullet nose in a handgun cartridge, that it would not penetrate a ballistic vest at 1600fps?


In addition, quality has a lot to do with how good a ballistic vest works. Military Contract equipment has always had its share of problems. Even with well known and respected products we occassionaly have QC problems.
This is from the second chance website..http://www.secondchance.com/information/standards.htm

Ranger SXT 9mm +P+ 127 GR. Controlled Expansion
In the interest of Officer Safety, Second Chance has tested all of its current vest models against this bullet. What we have discovered is, that while all our other models stopped this round, our Ultra Gold vest has some difficulty in consistently defeating this bullet. Due to this anomaly, and our continued emphasis on Officer Safety, we are temporarily discontinuing the production and sale of the Ultra Gold.
Click to expand...

Good Shooting
RED
 
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