Why "dueling stance" was so popular?

O

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
Almost all training pictures from 1940 and earlier show people standing with thir strong side to the target, firing one-handed. Any ideas as to why no one used two hands?

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Oleg "cornered rat" Volk (JPFO,NRA)

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
Where I grew up in the American Southwest a lot of people shot two handed. They usually did it when firing at ranges of 25 to 100 yards. This technique was not allowed in NRA sactioned target competition or in then current military or law enforcement training. That explains why pictures in contemporary books and magazines did not show it.
 
The first "professional" pistoleros were duelists, fighting under a very formal set of rules. They adopted a one-handed, edge-on stance for a number of reasons:

1) To present the smallest possible target (without doing something ungentlemanly, such as dropping to the ground ;))

2) To put the front sight of the pistol as far from the dominant eye as possible

3) To get into shooting position as quickly as possible while turning to face the opponent

4) Because the other favorite duelling weapon, the sword, was used in a similar stance

OK, so I'm just guessing... :p

Also, the other early users of handguns were cavalrymen, who had to shoot one-handed while using the other hand to control their horses.

Finally, early handgun technique evolved in the age of single shot pistols. Managing recoil for a quick second second shot wasn't a consideration.
 
Early pistols were probably lighter than your average Model 686, too.


The point about turning to face the opponent is an interesting one. I hadn't thought of that. It really is the quickest way. People may poo-poo the idea that this fraction of a fraction of a second matters that much, but then where did the Japanese emphasis on drawing the sword as the initial attack come from?
 
In the old days all competition and military was shot one handed. For those of us who were trained that way for over 50 years it seams much more natural shooting one handed and when I take a class of modern hand gun training I have to struggle to shoot as well as I can one handed for the first day. Particularly if I am shooting long range. No doubt I can come nearer cutting the first hole at 7 feet using two hands Truthfully I have no idea what I would use to in a real emergency.
I guess its because I have full confidence either way
 
I did find that the "dueling" stance works very well for Kel-tec P32...not exactly a powerhouse though. That does remind me, a dueling pistol was less likely to go through to the heart if your right side faced the enemy...though it would go through to lots of other useful organs :(
 
The late great Col. Rex Applegate advocated this stance up until his recent demise. Check out his books, including his last, published before his death. Firing from the gunfighter's stance with one hand brings up the whole issue of point-shooting versus aimed fire. (Please, let's not start that debate again.) A Vietnam veteran told me once that point-shooting saved his life during combat. A lot of this stuff has to do with what one practices and can recall in a critical moment of self-defense.
 
I have a fairly large collection of what you would now call 'historical' material on pistol shooting which goes back to 1875, and would tend to agree with the duelling/cavalry explanation. I also started pistol shooting around 1959 and well remember shooting one handed/bullseye/no muffs. Thank God that, unlike dinosaurs, we evolved. Shooters and police have to be the most conservative people in the world, and we have the track record to prove it! (Yes, I laughed at the Glock in 1985 too.)

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The two handed stance we have today comes from Jack Weaver - also called the Weaver Stance. This was devoloped fruther by Jeff Cooper and is evolved into what is known as The Modern Method of Pistol Shooting.
 
Back in the dueling days being proper (even when shooting some one) was of up most importance. They even had books published to give the correct way to stand, shoot and believe it or not fall if you were hit. God forbid someone falling in an improper manner!
If you must fall and die do it right. :confused:
 
well actually.. Your LEFT hand was for your pistol, your right for your sabre and you controlled the horse with your legs...

(source)

US Cavalry Museum Ft. Riley KS (really neat museum of stuff like gas maskes made for horses, 'sparring" sabers, and armor made for mounted combat practice.)

Its amazing to watch old films of this being done.

Dr.Rob
 
Dr. Rob's version of a cavalry soldier makes sense to me. Ancestors' have corroborated his opinion in old letters.

I wonder about the reality of non-smokeless powders on the fighting technique also.

[This message has been edited by G-Freeman (edited March 09, 2000).]
 
I purchase old gun books and magazines when and where I find them. I have one from 1962 showing the FBI shooting using the one handed target type shooting methods. The article with it discusses the importance of using this method and considering the FBI were indeed the experts on such issues, I have to wonder if that information is suspect what the information they now present is also suspect. They made it clear back then that their was no debate on the issue. My collection shows constant changes in thier methods over the years and each one claimed to be the last word.
In reading old gun magazines I find the same changing logic in about ten year time lines.
An academic review of this has shown me the science is hardly exacting in our past and I am sure in our future as various sources reach to find new methods. However I notice actual performance has indeed declined. Even an optimist must admit performance is hardly pristine and in fact anemic in application.
 
So they didnt discuss chsnges - they just made changes...

FBI has never been a good example of WHAT TO DO...
At least I cant think of any examples.

"But George you got a TRP - that's the gun the FBI just got!"
sigh...
"No, the FBI copied us..."

:D
 
In the firearms class I took back in the late 60's they stressed the importance of learning all methods to shoot. Left hand, right hand, both, left barracade, right barracade, kneeling, prone... etc. Different stances for differnt targets and kind of target.

Part of what we studied was the history behind the various stances. If I remember correctly the main reason given for the duelists stance was to make yourself the smallest target possible. As in all combat stances one of the most important things to remember is to make yourself the smallest target. Allways use a barricade if possible with only your gun arm and your eye showing to the target. Depending on if the barricade is to the left or right determines if you should shoot left handed or right handed. That is why it is important to practice both. Always use a brace if available. Or create one with both hands as long as you don't break the rule of exposure. Draw, weaver stance & point and shoot is for close combat, under extreme conditions.



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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
I think its important to remember that the "duelist" stance is the best stance to use when you plan on just "standing there like a man" being shot at, since it minimizes your profile. I for one do not advocate just standing there, and subsequently do not advocate the stance.

Erik
 
I've never seen John Wayne shoot a handgun
with two hands---only sissies and women
did that.Damn it all--I've even seen him
shoot a rifle with one hand.
Therefore is is conclusively proven that
one hand is the way to go.
Harder--sure,for some.
As for me,I'm with the Duke on this one.
 
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