Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
I notice that almost every pistol designed in the last 20-30 years includes a firing pin block. Yet almost none of the current popular rifles use this safety. Why is that?
Why do pistols have firing pin blocks and rifles don't?
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
- Start date
While I don't know for certain, I can think of some possible reasons, in no particular order...
1) the public believes it to be a needed safety feature in a handgun, but not in a rifle. There are laws requiring handguns be "drop safe" like in California...I am unaware of any such laws covering rifles.
2) people don't drop rifles like they do handguns, and when dropped, rifles generally land differently.
3) lots of handgun designs still have external hammers, so again, there is the visibly "cocked" pistol, vs an equally cocked but invisible to the eye rifle, which also adds to the idea of needing "extra safety" features.
4) Rifles are carried chamber empty FAR MORE than they are chamber loaded. Handguns are about the opposite, particularly defensive handguns.
5) The current "popular rifles" were all designed (in their basics at least) much more than 20-30 years ago, more like 50-60years ago, or more, and some popular rifle designs are well over 100 years old.
People, and especially lawyers had different ideas of what was "safe" back in those days. If a gun went off when dropped, the most common result was the person who dropped it was held at fault, NOT the company who made it.
6) In some designs of rifle, the safety IS a firing pin block. (Mauser)
Do note that several century plus old designs have had additional safeties added, (like that annoying push button thing on some lever guns) often to the esthetic annoyance of traditionalists.
7) While actual NEW designs might incorporate a firing pin block, redesigning and building existing designs with an extra part costs MONEY, and what company will spend that if they don't HAVE to??
well, that's all I got right now, off the top of my head..
1) the public believes it to be a needed safety feature in a handgun, but not in a rifle. There are laws requiring handguns be "drop safe" like in California...I am unaware of any such laws covering rifles.
2) people don't drop rifles like they do handguns, and when dropped, rifles generally land differently.
3) lots of handgun designs still have external hammers, so again, there is the visibly "cocked" pistol, vs an equally cocked but invisible to the eye rifle, which also adds to the idea of needing "extra safety" features.
4) Rifles are carried chamber empty FAR MORE than they are chamber loaded. Handguns are about the opposite, particularly defensive handguns.
5) The current "popular rifles" were all designed (in their basics at least) much more than 20-30 years ago, more like 50-60years ago, or more, and some popular rifle designs are well over 100 years old.
People, and especially lawyers had different ideas of what was "safe" back in those days. If a gun went off when dropped, the most common result was the person who dropped it was held at fault, NOT the company who made it.
6) In some designs of rifle, the safety IS a firing pin block. (Mauser)
Do note that several century plus old designs have had additional safeties added, (like that annoying push button thing on some lever guns) often to the esthetic annoyance of traditionalists.
7) While actual NEW designs might incorporate a firing pin block, redesigning and building existing designs with an extra part costs MONEY, and what company will spend that if they don't HAVE to??
well, that's all I got right now, off the top of my head..
carguychris
New member
In addition:44 AMP said:
With most bolt rifles, it's very easy to close the bolt on an empty chamber.
There's generally a greater emphasis among rifle shooters to ALWAYS use the manual safety, no exceptions, whenever a round is chambered and the shooter isn't ready to fire.
The majority of repeating rifles HAVE some form of manual safety, with the notable exception of French ones (the French always have to be different
).Some of this goes back to the old axiom that "pistols are defensive weapons while rifles are offensive weapons". It's generally assumed that one uses a rifle when one KNOWS that something Very Very Bad is going down, whereas a pistol is worn for unexpected circumstances, hence the emphasis on eliminating the need to manually disengage a safety at a moment's notice.
Lastly, rifles have historically been less dodgy politically because they're far less likely to be used in ordinary everyday crimes. This has led to less emphasis on making them "safe" and/or forcing gunmakers to add features to drive the price up as a backdoor form of gun control.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
That's because the Glock carbine hasn't been released yet.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
FrankenMauser
New member
It's also worth noting that some rifle designs do have features beyond the basic firing pin and a hammer or sear arrangement.
The Marlin 1893 and its offspring (36, 336, 444, 1895) have a two-piece firing pin, the rear portion of which is pushed out of alignment until the operating lever is fully closed, thereby also fully seating the locking bolt and pushing the rear firing pin up into position. In addition, there is a trigger block safety that will not allow the sear to release or trigger to be pulled until the lever is fully closed.
Further, the operating lever, itself, is a firing pin block. It blocks the forward firing pin from striking the primer until the lever is fully close (and also serves as a firing pin retractor when the action is opened).
The "Marlin Safety" design was meant more to do everything possible to prevent firing out-of-battery, but it means that a properly functioning rifle cannot let the firing pin strike the primer of a chambered cartridge if the lever is open even the slightest bit.
'Late' H&R Handi-Rifles and some other rifles have transfer bar systems with sprung firing pins (and/or rebounding hammers).
And several HK designs, the 416 included, do have firing pin safeties.
On the flip side, a notable exception came to mind:
Browning Buckmarks.
Whether in rifle or pistol form, the Buckmark design does not include a firing pin block/safety.
The Marlin 1893 and its offspring (36, 336, 444, 1895) have a two-piece firing pin, the rear portion of which is pushed out of alignment until the operating lever is fully closed, thereby also fully seating the locking bolt and pushing the rear firing pin up into position. In addition, there is a trigger block safety that will not allow the sear to release or trigger to be pulled until the lever is fully closed.
Further, the operating lever, itself, is a firing pin block. It blocks the forward firing pin from striking the primer until the lever is fully close (and also serves as a firing pin retractor when the action is opened).
The "Marlin Safety" design was meant more to do everything possible to prevent firing out-of-battery, but it means that a properly functioning rifle cannot let the firing pin strike the primer of a chambered cartridge if the lever is open even the slightest bit.
'Late' H&R Handi-Rifles and some other rifles have transfer bar systems with sprung firing pins (and/or rebounding hammers).
And several HK designs, the 416 included, do have firing pin safeties.
On the flip side, a notable exception came to mind:
Browning Buckmarks.
Whether in rifle or pistol form, the Buckmark design does not include a firing pin block/safety.
carguychris
New member
Actually, AFAIK .22 target pistols in general seem to generally lack firing pin blocks, likely because (a) buyers demand short and crisp single-stage triggers and wouldn't like the mushy two-stage takeup that typically accompanies firing pin blocks, and (b) people don't often carry such pistols for SD purposes.FrankenMauser said:
It is an interesting observation, however.
(FWIW I tried to Google a parts diagram of the brand-spanking-new SW22 Victory to see if it had one, but I came up with nothing.)
buck460XVR
New member
Must be a regional thing. Around here I don't think I've ever seen folks carry a rifle or shotgun without a round in the chamber. If it's being used, it's got a round in the chamber. I know from watching hunting shows, that folks out west, will carry their rifle loaded, but without a round chambered, and then chamber a round when game is seen, but around here, you'd never get away with it. I help teach hunter safety and the question comes up often about not chambering a round until game is spotted. It's a moot point if one follows the basic rules of gun safety and for the most part will cost you a good number of shooting opportunities. Makes about as much sense to me, as not chambering a round in your SD handgun.
FrankenMauser
New member
Don't believe everything you see on TV.
Most people that I've been around keep almost all rifles and shotguns loaded all of the time -- even illegally in vehicles -- whether in the Florida swamps or here in the Rockies.
More responsible owners may unload the firearm or put it away with an empty chamber. But quite a few will still have a loaded magazine. (Including many of mine.)
For actual hunting use, the only people I've ever seen walk around with an empty chamber are:
A) Youths, under direction from their 'responsible adult'.
B) People using a known-compromised firearm (generally in good working order, other than safeties that cannot be trusted).
C) "Long Range" hunters that don't ever attempt to get close. They hike 50 yards from their truck (if that), set up a bipod, and lob shots at animals 400-1,000 yards away.
D) People hunting without a license, that think they will be able to claim they were, "just carrying it for Joe..."
I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's my narrow view of the world, as I've seen it.
Many firearms makers recommend not chambering a round until you are ready to shoot.
I carry with a round chambered when I am "hunting" that includes stalking, bird hunting, etc. Stand hunting, varmint hunting, generally chamber empty until a shot presents itself.
I also think, that, by the numbers, which include (and are heavily influenced by) the THOUSANDS of uniformed people who carry a rifle daily, (with the chamber empty) that more people spend more hours carrying a rifle with the chamber empty than with it loaded.
I carry with a round chambered when I am "hunting" that includes stalking, bird hunting, etc. Stand hunting, varmint hunting, generally chamber empty until a shot presents itself.
I also think, that, by the numbers, which include (and are heavily influenced by) the THOUSANDS of uniformed people who carry a rifle daily, (with the chamber empty) that more people spend more hours carrying a rifle with the chamber empty than with it loaded.