Why Carry?--Minor Weekend Incident (Kinda Long)

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Chris in AL

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On Sunday afternoons around 1:30, some of the parents of the kids on my son's baseball team take the kids to the ball field for a little extra batting practice. Right next to the ball field is a tiny little public park/playground, with a big covered picnic/barbecue area with a huge sandbox (that my little one loves), and some play structures. This is in a very low traffic area. It's not unusual for us to be there an hour and have only one or two cars go by, and not see another person. It was even more quiet yesterday at 1:00pm, since most folks were home resting after church.

Since we got there a little early, we decided to take the kids to the playground for a few minutes before everyone else got to the ball field. We'd been there about 10 minutes when a car with heavily tinted windows comes by on the road (maybe 80 yards away), slows and stops on the road for several moments, then turns into the little parking area and stops next to our car. This is about 40 yards from where my wife and I were sitting, watching our sons (ages 4 and 7) play. Two older teenage boys get out on the passenger side (one from front, other back); I can see someone in the driver's seat since his side window is open, but can't make out any features at this angle. The two young men start walking toward us. The smaller of the two hangs back at 20 yards out and stands in a direct line between us and our car. The bigger of the two walks over to the picnic table where I'm sitting and says, "I'm looking for some dollars." He continues walking so that he's just about behind me.

I stand up, face him, and say, "Well, we haven't seen any" as I reached up under my shirt and gripped the Browning HP I'm carrying in an IWB. I didn't pull it (maybe should've, though I figured I hadn't really been threatened with violence, and if he made a move to draw, I was one step ahead of him. Course, I didn't know about his buddy, so they had me 2 to 1--my wife wasn't carrying at the time), just kept a good hold of it, my thumb on the hammer, but the motion was unmistakeable. They had to know what I was doing.

The punk stops, looks past me at his buddy, whom I presume to be their lookout, and just turns around and walks back to their car, joined by the "lookout." The just got in and drove away. It all happened very fast. Couple minutes at the very most.

My wife says it's possible they'd been hanging out there earlier and honestly thought they might've dropped some money there. I say no way. The whole thing just looked and felt wrong. Funny thing is, I was perfectly calm the entire time--and a little angry, to be honest. My wife and I discussed it after practice a little. No big deal. Had supper. Put the kids to bed. And then I didn't sleep a wink last night.

This morning I called the police department just to let them know there were some teenagers hanging out there asking people for money, but I didn't tell them "the rest of the story."

Maybe nothing would've happened, but I guess there are times when you never know.



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When they deploy for a predawn vertical insertion with the clear intent of initiating a brutality event against multiple soft targets, you'd better be prepared to begin serious violence processing else you'll wind up in a pile of decommissioned aggressor quantum.
 
I'm going to be a crank on this one.

I've said before on this list, that if you carry a gun, you need some serious training.
I'm glad nothing went bad but:

1. Given the guys looked threatening, you should have challenged them farther out. Letting them get close and behind you was a mistake.
A firm challenge would defuse a lot of potential trouble.

2. Drawing a gun would have been a terrible mistake. They have all the right in the world to come up to you. There was no clear threat of grievous bodily harm. Given what they said, if you drew - you quite easily could have been arrested. More reason to be assertive earlier.

3. Browning HP with hammer down on a loaded chamber? You were going to cock the hammer as you drew? Bad, easy way to start the fight by shooting yourself in the leg. You said your thumb was on the hammer.

You said you were one step ahead. So what, you draw you shoot and miss. Can you assume that the shot would stop them.

You said your actions were unmistakeable. How do you know that? The gun was covered by a shirt? You talk from the choir - did they know? If it was unmistakeable, they had good cause to tell the cops about a gun with a gun who threatened them. It would be your word against theirs and since you had the gun, who would be believed?

If you think someone is dangerous and they approach you within the Tueller radius when you could have challenged earlier - you made a mistake.

Glad you and yours are OK. This analysis is just to make folks think abit.
 
Glenn, I mostly agree, but he didn't draw, after all, and he did say it was for the same reason you said.

Would it really be that bad for him if the teenagers went to the cops and told them that some guy in the park was reaching for a gun?
"Did you see a gun?"
"No."
"Did he threaten you?"
"No."
That assumes they're being honest with the cop, which isn't likely but if they're going to lie about it they can lie even if he does nothing.

I think he did pretty well except the hammer down on loaded chamber, but frankly I don't know much about that so my opinion on that part isn't all that important anyway.
 
Glenn

Points well taken. Thanks for the analysis.

But you weren't there. And while you may think I need more training, I can only add, ok, no one can ever have enough, including yourself.

So what sort of verbal challenge should I have issued to these folks when they were farther out--people who, as you pointed out, had every right to be there until they made some overt attempt to commit a crime against me and my family? Sorry, but it seemed to me that issuing some sort of challenge at that stage would have been more likely to escalate the encounter, or give them cause to report me, so I chose to keep my eye on them and prepare for a high stress situation. Had one of our friendly patrolmen paid us a visit, I guess it would've ended up being the word of 3 18 year olds who dressed and talked like gang bangers against me and my wife. Since, as far as any investigating officer was concerned, I may have been reaching for a pack of gum, or my wallet, or my car keys.

My method for carrying my HP may not appeal to you, or anyone else for that matter, but I would argue that it's just as easy to shoot oneself while flipping the safety off a cocked and locked hair-triggered 1911 in a high stress situation as it is to do what I did. In addition, I practice that draw regularly, not to mention "trigger finger control" (rule #2), and have yet to shoot myself in the leg, or anywhere else for that matter. Double action autos and revolvers, Glocks, and 1911s have all been involved in ADs. It's the user, not the weapon.

[This message has been edited by Chris in AL (edited May 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Chris in AL (edited May 08, 2000).]
 
Chris in AL,

I think you did an excellent job of handling the situation for what it appeared to be. First of all, you were prepared with a firearm and it's easy now for people to analyze the situation and critique it but believe me (firsthand experience) it doesn't always matter what "condition" the firearm was in, the fact is you had it and you've trained as much as is reasonable given the extreme rarity of dangerous confrontations in our lives. I know I'm subjecting myself to criticism, but given the fact that you were just doing the family thing on a Sunday afternoon--enjoying life and not living in paranoia like some people do--and still had the presence of mind to ready yourself into condition yellow/orange is commendable.

We can always carry a little better, load a better round with better ballistics, deploy better tactics/logistics, etc. etc. But the fact remains, you were carrying (a fine piece BTW) and you had your wits about you.

My guess is this: If the supposed BG(s)persisted in demanding money and you decided to draw, BG(s) would need toliet paper. End of confrontation.

You're a good man for enjoying life with your family and going out prepared. Thanks for sharing your experience.
 
I think you did just fine Chris.

Since you did not draw or brandish, I fail to see the point of even mentioning it, as if you did. Its irrelevant. Further, challenging them (as was advised) when they hadn't done anything other than merely being there, would likely have escalated the situation; and if you were to continue challenging people whenever they came near you or your family, you'd likely gain a rep with the local police as a nutcase of some degree....then heaven help you if you ever were to use your gun in a justifable fashion.

I reiterate, you did fine



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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
A "challenge" need not be threatening. A simple, "Can I help you with something?" is non-threatening, and lets them know that you are paying attention, and not afraid to confront them. The statement can be made threatening if you need to by simply changing the inflection.

And if anyone ever needed to question you in court, it sounds like nothing... because it is.
 
I was waiting inside a restaurant last week and Michelle was outside (so that another friend would see the place and park there). I saw a guy loitering outside. He wore a jersey over a long tshirt, both untucked (it was HOT) and kept adjusting something in his pants. I think it was soemthing the size and shape of a Hi-point 9mm pistol. Very nervous fella. I think he was trying to work up the nerve to stick the place up but thought better of it.

Turns out he bugged Michelle after he rounded the corner to where I couldn't see him. Offered cigarettes, then kept saying things like "isn't it cool that this car is shiny and the next one is dull. Weird, eh?" She got creeped out and went inside.

I might be getting too much attuned to this type of crap...but it beats condition white. I liked the cat analogy: come up alert with all claws out :) Of course, these days I move *away* from the action and behind cover.
 
The only change I would have made to the situation would have been to stand up once I saw them coming into the area and, if they still approached directly, make direct eye contact and issue a greeting, not a challenge. That lets them know that you are aware of their presence and think something may be about to occur.

Other than that, I think you did quite well. How you choose to carry is, as you say, is up to you.
 
For a verbal challenge, consider this:

When potential BG is still, oh, 30 feet away and headed your direction, hold up your support hand in the universal palm-forward "stop" gesture and say "Stop right there!" in as authoritative a voice as you can. 99.9% of people (probably all rational people) will stop; the other 0.1% have something else in mind. If he stops, then ask what he wants, or can I help you, or whatever. If there's nothing going on, he thinks you're crazy, and he keeps his distance. That's OK. If he had planned something for you, and he changes his mind, great.

If he doesn't stop, or he tries to smooth talk you while he's still advancing, you can probably figure something's up, so say it again: "I said stop right there!"

If he still doesn't stop, you've got a harder decision to make, and only you can make it. But by challenging him twice, you've made him tip his hand, and possibly gotten the attention of anyone else who may have been around.
 
Chris, what you did was perfect. You just became a member in the, over a million crimes stopped with a handgun that never gets reported every year, club. Welcome aboard! ;) Tell your wife the only dollers they lost were the ones they didn’t get from you.

Anyone that thinks what you did was wrong is wrong. Everyone is still alive and you and your family were unharmed. To my way of thinking that is the “PERFECT” ending. We can what if and maybe all day long. It could have been raining or the moon may have eclipsed. So what? What you did worked. That’s all that maters!



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Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

homes.acmecity.com/rosie/happy/307/
 
I had a similar situation years ago in Pomona, CA. There even the supermarkets have armed security along with the liquor stores and the convenience stores.

My wife and I had gone to the market for groceries. It was nighttime. We returned to our car and my wife had already gotten into the passenger seat. As I opened the driver's side door I noticed a fellow pop up from between a couple of cars about thirty yards away and walk towards me with his right hand in his pants pocket. He was wearing blue jeans so it made his walk very awkward.

I faced him and challenged him with, "What do you want?" He didn't answer and I asked him the same thing again. He didn't answer and kept coming. I finally pushed my jacket back and grabbed the grips of a Ruger Security Six in .357 Magnum. In a much louder voice I said, "I said, 'What do you want?'"

I was licensed with a California CCW as a result of being a reserve deputy sheriff. My status was not that of a deputy sheriff but just a private citizen. Even so, I always wore my badge on my belt in front of my holster to preclude identification problems if either another person or peace officer should see that I was armed.

The fellow came to an abrupt halt and stammered he was just trying to get some bus fare to Azusa and wondered if I would help him out. I told him I didn't have any bus fare and he could just keep walking in the other direction. I also told him to keep his hand in his pocket.

He walked away, continually looking over his shoulder at me. When he was about thirty yards away he shouted, "F-----g cop." A couple more people in the parking lot looked up and then hurriedly started walking away.

To Chris in AL, I think you did fine. We can argue to death the rightness of our actions and "when" we should show we are armed. At some point we have be sensible and be prepared for any attack. Part of this is planning our responses so that when a situation arises we already know what we are going to do and not get bogged down in deciding if this is legal or not. Having your wife and kids with you I believe justifies a quicker and more aggressive response. That, and the way these two deployed, one to cut off your line of retreat to the car and the other to split your attention away from the other two. I would not interpret their actions as those of someone looking for a lost wallet. This was danger speaking and you were sensible to recognize it.
 
I agree - I was just offering a suggestion for a verbal challenge should you decide to use one.
 
buzz_knox:

Agree completely. FWIW...As soon as they left I told my wife, "I screwed up. Shoulda stood up as soon as they got out of the car."

Anyway, thanks to all for taking the time to offer your opinions, advice, and encouragement.
 
I would suggest a course like Insights's
Street and Vehicle Tactics. It teaches you how to challenge, risk factors from a too close approach, body language, etc.

That it worked out for Chris is great.

I would suggest that someone in back of you within Tueller distance is a tactical horror.
An understress draw of the HP as described is not in the literature as a good thing.

I'm still cranky on this. That it work for Chris is fine. To say, he did the right thing is a different issue.

I stand by my analysis. Mine and anyone else's on this list is worth what you paid for it.

You don't let threats get close if you can prevent.

All those who argue differently, how many times have you tried the Tueller drill?
 
Tueller was an LEO who proved that an average person could cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds or less. The motivation for this test was the fact that prosecutors were claiming that a knife or other contact weapon was not a deadly threat to someone with a firearm. Tueller showed that if a person decided to rush a cop/armed civilian, the attacker had the advantage and could cover the distance before the defender could respond (after all, action beats reaction).

Ayoob has reported seeing the elderly and even the disabled (guy in a leg cast) covering the distance in 2 seconds or less.

The final point: if you see any form of weapon that could cause bodily harm, you're clear to draw and assume the ready position. If they advance, perform the indicated response.
 
Having someone do this to you in practice is mildly exciting when they are in front of you.

Thinking about someone in back of you is nasty.

Thus, my caution about someone approaching you.

I will repeat my cranky rant about folks who carry need more training than shooting cans and at a B-27 or too.

You need to know your laws, the force continuum, tactics, etc. Many good books
and courses.

Sorry to be cranky but that's the way I feel today.

One can beat the Tueller charge with appropriate tactics but it's exciting.
 
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