Why can't we carry guns in schools, on planes, in national parks, ...

F

FUD

Moderator
Not withstanding our constitutional right to keep and bare arms, the reality of the matter is that (unless you live in Vermont) if you carry a firearm without some sort of state license and you are caught, you will be fined, jailed, have your guns confiscated, bared from owning guns in the future, etc.

So, most legally armed citizens get licensed to carry a concealed firearm. Why then, are we bared from carrying the gun everywhere (such as schools, national parks, etc.). After all, the person who is going to do something illegal with a gun isn't likely to get licensed. Let's see ...

... A lunatic wants to go on a shooting spree in a place of worship. He's NOT going to first get licensed so that he can carry a firearms and passing a law that prohits CCW licensed holders from carrying in certain areas is not going to stop the person with criminal intentions ...

The way I see it, placing restrictions on where a CHL holder can carry a firearm does nothing to prevent gun crime.

Opinions? Ideas?

Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
fud-nra.gif


[This message has been edited by FUD (edited May 01, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dennis Olson: And your point would be...?[/quote]Dennis, sorry. Hit the <ENTER> key before I finished typing the entire post. FUD.
 
I carry. Anytime I want to, except on an airplane, or in gov't buildings w/metal detectors. I have finally reached the point in my life that I no longer CARE what the gov't says about it.

I (and my family) will not be killed to satisfy some socialist "law". If I'm ever busted, I'll defend on 2nd grounds. Pure & simple. I might lose, but.... maybe not.

I have the right to LIFE. The socialists do NOT have the right to MAKE me die at the hand of a criminal.

'Nuf said.
 
Restrictions were designed to make CCW difficult to discourage folks from getting licenses and/or renewing them.

Ever CCW bill has been a compromise between pro and anti forces. Some states have even dropped their bills for the moment as the restrictions were too onerous.

So to summarize, the restrictions are not to prevent crime but discourage permits.

TX did a clever thing when we got the first bill and then in the second wave weakened some of the more obnoxious rules. Of course, we got the first bill with a compromise or two - Horrors!!

Same game in Oregon - it worked.
 
Fud,
First, what Glenn E Meyer says is absolutely true. At the cost of sounding like an Anti,I say:
As inconvenient as it may seem(and I hate not being allowed to carry everywhere)there is another side to it.
You say that a potential criminal will not go through the licensing procedure first. That is true in most cases. But, the lunatic who shot up a bunch of school children in Britain was LICENSED, as was the lunatic in Tasmania. In short, after some one has already been licensed, then he goes kooKoo what can you do.
After all, people are licensed on the strength of them not having a previous criminal record, that does'nt prevent them from commiting a crime after being licensed.
The Government has to assume that since you have no criminal record so far, it is unlikely that you will now become a criminal all of a sudden, and based on that fact issue you a license. We are honorable people, so we assume that most people are honorable too. All governments have done dishonorable things and they project that same attribute to people. Hence, the distrust.
Regards,
Anand.
 
Exactly!
Licensing, certifications, credentials, permits..... are NOT a guarantee of future behavior!
Just look at driver's licenses. Sure, most of the drunks that kill people with their cars have had many, many DWI's....but there are a good portion of drunken murderers who have clean records.
(But, that doesn't mean that's the first time they've driven drunk. How many times did you exceed the speed limit before your first ticket?)

But, back to the point. Gun laws and restrictions on where you may carry DO NOT prevent crime.
Someone brought up the point in another thread that some state just passed (or is thinking of passing) a law allowing clergy to carry handguns under their robes while in church.
I think it's a great idea!
However, I've got a question...
Church property is private property, right?
And as an employee, hasn't it always been LEGAL to carry in church?
I know that in MN you may carry open or concealed in your home or place of business.
I don't think that the place of business is restricted to retail establishments, is it?
While I support pastors being armed, I want to know if it really is illegal?
Or, if that law (or proposed law) is just cosmetic and not really changing anything.
Anyone help me out here?
Tx, -Kframe
 
Well, I'm as pro-RKBA as the next guy, but I don't want just anyone carrying in a plane. Depressurization after an overpenetration by some dork carrying FMJ ammo is not fun.

------------------
TRAVELLER, SHOULD YOUR ROAD LEAD YOU TO SPARTA, TELL THEM THAT YOU SAW US LYING HERE AS THE LAWS WILLED IT.

-Inscritption on a Greek monument to Leonidas
 
I don't want anyone carrying on a plane either.
That is about the only place that I favor restrictions.
The reason is, is that in airplanes it is possible to make sure no bad guys are carrying. Well, almost all the time anyway.
But, out on the street, in schools, in churches.... there is no way to be absolutely sure there are no bad guys with guns.
But, my original question stands: Hasn't it always been legal for the clergy to carry in church?
-Kframe
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kframe:
I don't want anyone carrying on a plane either.
That is about the only place that I favor restrictions.
The reason is, is that in airplanes it is possible to make sure no bad guys are carrying. Well, almost all the time anyway. -Kframe[/quote]

Guess you didn't hear about the old lady who had concealed 2 loaded firearms in her purse and one went off in flight. Her purse was in the cargo hold however. Check out the story at http://live.altavista.com/scripts/editorial.dll?ei=1731368&ern=y

45er
 
I still believe the only rational solution to flying armed would be to require all crew and passengers to be nude and armed. Rental firearms would be available at the boarding gate for the firearms disadvantaged.

At least require it of all females under the age of 40 under the weight of 140#. (in keeping with our free enterprise system you could let each airline set it's own age and weight standards) I know sexism, ageism and other "isms" might cause some problems but just remember - It's for the children.

RKBA!
 
A .45 hole, or ten of em, isn't going to cause depressurization problems. Lots of civil transport aircraft have pretty good sized hull leaks but the system can compensate for a lot of leakage. You might shoot the sucker down with a lucky slug, but just a hole in the hull is no big deal.

------------------
Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
Just one little comment because I am a wise acre :rolleyes:

Laws don't prevent crimes.
Laws cause crime!
If there were no laws there would be no criminals.

So maybe the rise in crime is due to the fact that we have more laws every year :eek:

If of course there is a rise in crime.
If you look at the FBI's UCR you will note that the Murder rate stays in a narrow range nation wide [from 7 to 9 per 100,000 of the population]. Course how many people go down to a law library and look at the numbers?
 
anand, what you are refering to is called "prior restraint" it is supposed to be illegal. That a couple of licensed gun owners when off the deep end and shot a bunch of people is no reason to deny the rest of us the right to carry freely. Should the drunks who drive and kill massively cause the rest of us to be banned from interstate highways in cars that can go over 25 mph? Should the police search our homes in case we might be planning on violating some law?
 
45er, like I said: "Well, almost all the time anyway."
Yes, there are exceptions to every rule.
I would wager though, that there currently are more people bringing guns into schools, churches, diners, etc than have ever been brought onto commercial flights.
-Kframe
 
Ditto what Sam says. I can recall a work order on a C-130- cargo compartment will not pressurize- out to the flight line, well no sh--, Sherlock, there's a couple dozen bullet holes here....
Colorado law says I can't carry in the courtroom or judges chambers, period, plus the fed restrictions. Schools are specifically permitted for ccw holder.
 
Glamdring:

Ha ha...you laugh

> Laws don't prevent crimes--Laws cause crime!If there were no laws there would be no criminals.

I had a "systems scientist" say just that to me, on a NY Times forum. He said "Remember, the biggest cause of crime is legislation"

I nearly swallowed my tongue and fell off my chair. I composed myself, and promptly told him in several ways that he was completely full of post-digested food residue. What a PhD-toting idiot.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dennis Olson:
I carry. Anytime I want to, except on an airplane, or in gov't buildings w/metal detectors. I have finally reached the point in my life that I no longer CARE what the gov't says about it.

I (and my family) will not be killed to satisfy some socialist "law". If I'm ever busted, I'll defend on 2nd grounds. Pure & simple. I might lose, but.... maybe not.

I have the right to LIFE. The socialists do NOT have the right to MAKE me die at the hand of a criminal.

'Nuf said.

[/quote]

What Dennis said. Up until I retired, I routinely carried a gun everywhere, including on commercial and military aircraft. I'm less than thrilled that I was responsible enough to be trusted to carry in all those locations, then, suddenly, am not.




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Gary L. Griffiths
Chief Instructor
Advanced Force Tactics, Inc.
 
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