Why 9mm +P and +P+ ??
- Thread starter kymasabe
- Start date
Cheapshooter
New member
Magazine capacity.
TruthTellers
New member
Not missing anything. +P+ has never made any sense to me and the extra two rounds of 9mm compared to .40 or .357 Sig isn't worth the likely accuracy loss by pushing such a small, light bullet that fast with that much pressure.
9mm +P... I'm not impressed with it because it's not that much more powerful than standard 9mm.
9mm +P... I'm not impressed with it because it's not that much more powerful than standard 9mm.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Standard 9mm has plenty of speed for expansion of hollow points.
Most Americans feel that "more is better." It's not necessarily so.
Most Americans feel that "more is better." It's not necessarily so.
Doesn't .357 Sig us the capacity of the .40 case to push the small, light, 9MM bullet faster? Or is the concern the pressure in the 9MM +P?
Though I agree with the general question. If 9MM is not enough the gain by going to +P or +P+ is probably not going to make a difference.
MandolinMan
New member
IMHO,
-- I like nothing about the 40S&W.
-- 9mm +P adds little additional recoil and all my pistols are rated for it.
-- It does offer more consistent expansion, especially in my pistols with short barrels.
-- It doesn't cost much more.
Just my opinion, YMMV.
-- I like nothing about the 40S&W.
-- 9mm +P adds little additional recoil and all my pistols are rated for it.
-- It does offer more consistent expansion, especially in my pistols with short barrels.
-- It doesn't cost much more.
Just my opinion, YMMV.
What you are missing is the history, which explains how we got where we are now with the 9mm Parabellum. (and its competition)
And this also includes the history of handgun ammunition design, and people (customer's) attitudes, and expectations. (I'll skip a lot, and just hit some points)
First off, the original 9mm Luger loading was a 124gr FMJ @ 1050fps from a 4" barrel. This changed shortly before WWI into a 115gr FMJ @ 1150fps from a 4" barrel.
With one huge exception, the "high capacity" of the 9mm over the .45 was two rounds. And this held for many decades.
The exception was the Browning Hi-Power, appearing in 1935, which had a 13 shot magazine. Took more than 30 years before another (fairly) successful design held more. And its wasn't until the 1970s that commercial ammo makers began offering hollow points in handgun ammo.
And it took bullet makers some years to make JHP bullets that performed well enough, often enough to satisfy our expectations.
The wondernine "revolution", then the Glock (and the polymer frame guns that followed) captured the police market, with the US military's switch to the 9mm making that possible.
So with a lot of people (especially police) using the 9mm, (and being "stuck" using the 9mm) when real world results were less than desired, the only place things could be improved was the 9mm ammo.
One thing they knew would improve 9mm performance (while working on better bullets) was to increase the velocity. So, we get 9mm +p
and when that isn't a "magic bullet" some go even further and make 9mm +p+.
Also during this time, other alternatives were developed, like the .40S&W and the .357 SIG. There is a lot of overlap in the timeline.
Today, a civilian has lots of choices, and can easily go to a bigger/different round, if they aren't happy with the 9mm. An organization (such as the police) cannot. Not easily. Many did, anyway. Some have gone back to the 9mm, some haven't, or haven't yet. Part of that is political, part is economic, or a mixture of both. Only some of it is the round's actual performance on the street.
Today, if it doesn't hold 15+ rounds, a lot of people don't think its a good choice for a service pistol. only 9mm does that easily. That wasn't always the case.
That's the way I see it, feel free to disagree...
Nope not at all. Gimmick, a solution to a non-existent problem. A way for ammo makers to get folks to part with hard earned money. Just like all the tactical gear on the market. One day its a holster and the next day its a tactical holster and the cost increased $30. Just asking, if you were shot yesterday would be able to tell the difference between a 9 mm, 9 mm +p, or 9 mm +P+. I seriously doubt it. I agree with you not enough umph out of that 9 mm get a 40 S&W
"...increase the velocity..." The '+P' part is about pressure, not velocity.
For years SAAMI refused to consider there being such a thing as '+P' for any cartridge. Still no SAAMI standard for '+P+', as I recall.
You're also looking at the shooting games with their silly and arbitrary, 'power factor' idea. That has nothing to do with anything but the game play. Increasing the pressure can increase the daft power factor so a 9mm might "make major". Mind you, that's also why there's such a thing as a 147 grain 9mm bullet.
For years SAAMI refused to consider there being such a thing as '+P' for any cartridge. Still no SAAMI standard for '+P+', as I recall.
You're also looking at the shooting games with their silly and arbitrary, 'power factor' idea. That has nothing to do with anything but the game play. Increasing the pressure can increase the daft power factor so a 9mm might "make major". Mind you, that's also why there's such a thing as a 147 grain 9mm bullet.
I would say historically +p and +p+ 9mm did make sense in that it offered better more consistent opening of the HP bullet.
Today I don’t think it is necessary. If you look at the ballistics of the HST line, as an example of one of the best, all their bullets in all calibers do really well at both penetrating and expanding. The standard velocity 124 grain 9mm stuff is really solid.
I am not singling our HST as the only option just as an example of one of the best of the modern day cartridges. 9/40/45 they are all pretty exemplary across the HST line in pretty much any loading. No plus P required anymore IMO.
Today I don’t think it is necessary. If you look at the ballistics of the HST line, as an example of one of the best, all their bullets in all calibers do really well at both penetrating and expanding. The standard velocity 124 grain 9mm stuff is really solid.
I am not singling our HST as the only option just as an example of one of the best of the modern day cartridges. 9/40/45 they are all pretty exemplary across the HST line in pretty much any loading. No plus P required anymore IMO.
44 AMP hit on most of the salient points.
As to +P+ 9 mm, I believe it started with the
Illinois State Police who wanted something more
powerful for their Smith autos than what was
currently available.
Winchester produced the ammo with the ISP
signing a waiver that that agency was responsible
for increased wear on the Smith autos.
By all reports the Illinois highway LEOs were
quite happy with the results of the +P+ ammo
for "one shot" stops.
This was before the .40 S&W really came about
and when that cartridge did get rolling, I believe
the California Highway Patrol was among the first
to use it. The attraction of the .40 was that it
cold be stuffed into the existing sized Smith autos
which were what the Illinois police had in 9 mm.
But trouble followed when the .40 started stressing
the Smiths and time was needed to beef up those
"9 mm" autos.
Aa I recall the .40 started with a pretty heavy bullet
but as time went on, to cut recoil, the weights of the
bullets kept descending until many are not much
more than a 9 mm in weight. And I suspect pressures
in the .40 have also diminished to keep from blowing
cases in such guns as the Glock.
The .40 was really an answer to the FBI which wanted
a caliber that started with a "4" and originally turned to
the 10 mm. But the 10 mm guns were big and
heavy, so Smith saw the chance to design the .40
and still incorporate it in its mid sized autos.
Nowadays, I doubt many who prefer the 9 mm for
its light recoil and high capacity really care about the
existence of +P and +P+ ammo.
One "oddity" for calibers was that at the time the
Illinois State Police had its +P+ 9 mm, the Treasury
agents had their +p+ .38 Special with a 110 grain
bullet that really roared out of their 2.5 inch
barreled Model 19s.
As to +P+ 9 mm, I believe it started with the
Illinois State Police who wanted something more
powerful for their Smith autos than what was
currently available.
Winchester produced the ammo with the ISP
signing a waiver that that agency was responsible
for increased wear on the Smith autos.
By all reports the Illinois highway LEOs were
quite happy with the results of the +P+ ammo
for "one shot" stops.
This was before the .40 S&W really came about
and when that cartridge did get rolling, I believe
the California Highway Patrol was among the first
to use it. The attraction of the .40 was that it
cold be stuffed into the existing sized Smith autos
which were what the Illinois police had in 9 mm.
But trouble followed when the .40 started stressing
the Smiths and time was needed to beef up those
"9 mm" autos.
Aa I recall the .40 started with a pretty heavy bullet
but as time went on, to cut recoil, the weights of the
bullets kept descending until many are not much
more than a 9 mm in weight. And I suspect pressures
in the .40 have also diminished to keep from blowing
cases in such guns as the Glock.
The .40 was really an answer to the FBI which wanted
a caliber that started with a "4" and originally turned to
the 10 mm. But the 10 mm guns were big and
heavy, so Smith saw the chance to design the .40
and still incorporate it in its mid sized autos.
Nowadays, I doubt many who prefer the 9 mm for
its light recoil and high capacity really care about the
existence of +P and +P+ ammo.
One "oddity" for calibers was that at the time the
Illinois State Police had its +P+ 9 mm, the Treasury
agents had their +p+ .38 Special with a 110 grain
bullet that really roared out of their 2.5 inch
barreled Model 19s.
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As others have said, mag capacity comes to mind, as does recoil management and ammunitions costs.
For me, it's the ammunition my agency issues should I choose to carry a 9mm pistol.
Don't forget the "because I can and I want to" factor as well.
Just for fun----
I pasted that together for my own needs, but it perfectly describes my thoughts of "why not 40". It was a knee jerk reaction to the FBI's "Scotty, we need more power", and they got the 10mm...... The response was then "oops Scotty, that's too much power, throttle it back!!"
For the ballistic return over 9mm and under .45ACP, it's abusive to the gun, the shooter, and offers nothing that both of the other service level calibers don't offer as well.
For me, it's the ammunition my agency issues should I choose to carry a 9mm pistol.
Don't forget the "because I can and I want to" factor as well.
Just for fun----
I pasted that together for my own needs, but it perfectly describes my thoughts of "why not 40". It was a knee jerk reaction to the FBI's "Scotty, we need more power", and they got the 10mm...... The response was then "oops Scotty, that's too much power, throttle it back!!"
For the ballistic return over 9mm and under .45ACP, it's abusive to the gun, the shooter, and offers nothing that both of the other service level calibers don't offer as well.
disseminator
New member
Reading these posts, something occurs to me: The FBI made the 40 popular and it was a really bad move cause 40 sucks, but then this is followed up with, the FBI says 9mm is great and so anybody who doesn't agree is an idiot.
This is really what all these 9mm vs 40 debates are.
The FBI blessed the 40 into prominence and then changed their mind and blessed the 9mm into prominence. Why do we care what they think again?
The whole thing being a knee-jerk from the Miami shooting, a true tactical blunder on every level, I can't believe anyone listens to these people about anything firearms related.
As for 9mm +P+, skip it and get a 40 or 357 SIG.
I carry Underwood Ammo 124gr +P+ rated at 1300fps in my 9mm.
Because my 9mm pistol is a heavy CZ75B-SA with a 4.7" barrel, the recoil is very manageable.
And I converted (stronger recoil and firing pin springs) my Sar K-2 .45 to fire .45 Super (230gr at 1150fps), and it's a kitten to shoot, also being an all steel pistol.
If folks want the extra horsepower and their gun and hands can handle it, why not? To each their own. I agree however, that shot placement is king.
Because my 9mm pistol is a heavy CZ75B-SA with a 4.7" barrel, the recoil is very manageable.
And I converted (stronger recoil and firing pin springs) my Sar K-2 .45 to fire .45 Super (230gr at 1150fps), and it's a kitten to shoot, also being an all steel pistol.
If folks want the extra horsepower and their gun and hands can handle it, why not? To each their own. I agree however, that shot placement is king.
Disseminator,
It's not that the FBI was right and then wrong and then
right, or whatever. It's just recognizing what the history
of the .40 S&W is.
Personally, I think the FBI totally misread the Miami
shootout and should have just concentrated on better
tactics, etc. and etc. and stayed with the 9 mm and
also the hotter .38s or a .357.
At one point the fBI was going to make Smith's large
framed .45 sized auto but in 10 mm its carry pistol
Right from the start it was obvious that it was too
big for the business suited FBI agents to tote on a
daily basis. And recoil was just another negative.
Regarding the Miami fiasco, I believe the FBI was
just trying to restore its image about its expertise.
I remember one of the agents involved in the
shootout saying it wasn't nice for him to just be
armed with a J-frame Smith. Well, that was his
personal mistake while hunting known heavy hitter
gunmen.
Simply put, the hunt for the killer/shooters was
poorly coordinated and planned. Every agent on
that hunt should have had a carbine or shotgun
at the ready.
It's not that the FBI was right and then wrong and then
right, or whatever. It's just recognizing what the history
of the .40 S&W is.
Personally, I think the FBI totally misread the Miami
shootout and should have just concentrated on better
tactics, etc. and etc. and stayed with the 9 mm and
also the hotter .38s or a .357.
At one point the fBI was going to make Smith's large
framed .45 sized auto but in 10 mm its carry pistol
Right from the start it was obvious that it was too
big for the business suited FBI agents to tote on a
daily basis. And recoil was just another negative.
Regarding the Miami fiasco, I believe the FBI was
just trying to restore its image about its expertise.
I remember one of the agents involved in the
shootout saying it wasn't nice for him to just be
armed with a J-frame Smith. Well, that was his
personal mistake while hunting known heavy hitter
gunmen.
Simply put, the hunt for the killer/shooters was
poorly coordinated and planned. Every agent on
that hunt should have had a carbine or shotgun
at the ready.
IMO extra velocity of +P (~50 fps) may offset using a shorter barrel, help ensure bullet expansion.
For example, a standard velocity 147 gr. HST might expand just fine out of a 4'' Glock 19
To get the same expansion potential from a Glock 43 one might go with 147 +P HST, extra velocity make up for shorter barrel.
Edit to add: My wife has a ported Shield 9mm, in my testing using 4 layer denim in front of water filled jugs 147 HST +P will expand but any further reduction in velocity would not be good. (Yea, I already know blinding flash, horrific powder burns, ect... nope.)
For example, a standard velocity 147 gr. HST might expand just fine out of a 4'' Glock 19
To get the same expansion potential from a Glock 43 one might go with 147 +P HST, extra velocity make up for shorter barrel.
Edit to add: My wife has a ported Shield 9mm, in my testing using 4 layer denim in front of water filled jugs 147 HST +P will expand but any further reduction in velocity would not be good. (Yea, I already know blinding flash, horrific powder burns, ect... nope.)
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I have both 9mm and 40 S&W, though more 9mm's.
If either one really lacks something then the other can't be far behind. Performance wise they are so close.
I believe the magazine 10 round limit law of old (at least in Texas) really kick started the 40.
I agree, +P does stand for increased chamber pressure........for increased velocity of a given bullet weight.
One thing, if a 40 beats a gun silly then why doesn't +P or +P+ 9mm?
I would bet my prize goat they are both guilty of this.
If either one really lacks something then the other can't be far behind. Performance wise they are so close.
I believe the magazine 10 round limit law of old (at least in Texas) really kick started the 40.
I agree, +P does stand for increased chamber pressure........for increased velocity of a given bullet weight.
One thing, if a 40 beats a gun silly then why doesn't +P or +P+ 9mm?
I would bet my prize goat they are both guilty of this.