Whos at fault here? gun paperwork?

D

DirtAddsHP

Inactive
i bought 2 guns from a big5 store. I signed all the papers, waited the waiting period and picked them up. I got a call a month later that they say they forgot to have me sign one piece of their papers for the "department of justice" they said i need to come in and sign them.

Now heres the tricky part. I love 100 miles away and only went there because there was a awesome sale at the time.

I told that i am on call for work i cannot travel that far for a few weeks. I told them they can email or fax it to me and i will sign and get it back to them.

They said i need to still come in and sign it, i said i cannot. So they said they are gonna submit the incomplete paperwork for selling me the gun. And that i will be receiving a certified letter from "department of justice" and could be fined.

Is this true? How am i at fault for not signing everything and then them not telling me.

btw im in los angeles california.
 
I would think as a dealer they would be on the hook for not having their paperwork in order. As a customer there is no paperwork you're required to keep. I'd ask them exactly what line and form number were not completed. Then call the ATF's local office and ask them about it and what the options are.

If it's on Big 5 I'd ask them to have one of their employees drive it out for you to sign it, mail it to you if the ATF says that's ok, or reimburse you at the government rate of $.505 per mile plus some reasonable hourly rate for your time to drive out and back.
 
Technically I would agree with Wuchak that they are the ones in trouble here. If anything comes of this I imagine they could lose their FFL, of course you could goto jail. I would call ATF and file a complaint or something in writing. Something that definitely indicates you were willing to complete the paperwork and they indicated you had before you left the store. I think this will require a FTF for the paperwork(whole idea behind FFLs in the first place). .505/mile is pretty bad. Considering gas and wear on your car, I would want .65.
 
I have had this happen twice. I am not a lawyer and obviously I cannot give you legal advice. However, I can tell you what happened in both of my situations.

I bought a Howa Model 1500 .308 and a Remington Model 700 .270 from the same store at two different times. I missed the same question twice (I think it was whether I was fugitive or something along those lines - which of course I am not).

The gun store called me every other day for a month on each situation and threatened the same nonsense. I too lived a long way from the store and thought it would be a real hassle to drive all the way back for just an initial next to a question.

I called a lawyer and asked him. This is what he said. If the store gets an audit by the ATF they could face serious fines or (however unlikely) possible revocation of their FFL. You the buyer, he told me, have no legal responsibility after the sale has been made. It is the store's legal responsibility.

This explains why they called me about every other day for a month. I finally did go and make the special trip on both occasions only because they wore me down and I got sick of the calls.

I made them compensate me with two boxes of ammunition both times.

Should I have missed the question? No. Should they have caught it? Absoulutely. That is what they do for a living. If you are a dealer triple check your paperwork before the customer leaves. Otherwise it is on you.

JP
 
Oops. Missing paperwork. Stuff happens. Help them out -- get the stuff signed and taken care of. Or maybe they can send the paperwork to a FFL in your area so that you can sign it personally in the presence of an FFL; just an idea, I'm not even sure it would work, so I'll let a FFL person comment on that.

Either way, I'd bite the bullet (:rolleyes:), sign the paperwork, and not have to worry about all the attention the unsigned paperwork will attract. But I know that gas is expensive, so if you have to go back down there to sign the stuff, tell them you'll need some cash for gas.
 
I think the first call is to the store to speak with the store manager to find out exactly what was not completed. The call probably came from someone at the firearms counter and the manager might not even know what's going on.

Then a call to:
U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Los Angeles Field Division
550 North Brand Avenue
8th Floor
Glendale, California 91203
(818) 265-2500
Fax: (818) 265-2501

to find out what options are available for getting it signed. If they cannot mail it to you they might, like Fremmer suggested, be able to mail it to an FFL closer to you. You can check the buyers section of gunbroker.com to find the closest ones by zipcode. Of course Big5 would be responsible for compensating the FFL.

Or they can compensate you for driving back out. If you're open to store credit instead of cash it might be easier to get and they might give you more.

If they cannot find a way to resolve this to your satisfaction then I would call Big 5's corporate office at:

CORPORATE OFFICE:
Big 5 Corp.
2525 E. El Segundo Blvd.
El Segundo, California 90245
Tel: (310) 536-0611
Monday - Friday 8am - 5pm
Time Zone: (Pacific)

Good luck and please let us know how you make out.
 
Sounds more like a state form since the only signature the FEDs want is on the 4473.
If that did not get signed the FFL is in serious trouble.

I would call them and politely ask what form, and if they are NOT nice about the while thing tell them to pound sand.

THEY are the ones with a problem.
 
The requirements are on the licensee for the paperwork. That's why they're there. It's their responsibility, not yours.
 
Either way, I'd bite the bullet (), sign the paperwork, and not have to worry about all the attention the unsigned paperwork will attract.
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What he said. Work with them, do you really want the ATF scrutinizing you transaction? Think about it.
 
okay i called them they said it was the 4473. the part where you need to reconfirm your identity..

i guess ill be calling the Department of Justice now.
 
You the buyer, he told me, have no legal responsibility after the sale has been made. It is the store's legal responsibility.
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This is true, but so is this:

Work with them, do you really want the ATF scrutinizing you transaction? Think about it.
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I think that the best thing to do is go back and sign the paperwork. But make it clear that it was THEIR responsibility in the first place and THEIR mistake that put both of you in this situation. Since you are a distance away, they're going to need to compensate you in some form or another. Cash maybe, and maybe a gift card/store credit. But this isn't your fault and they should acknowledge that.
 
Personally, there is no way I would call the ATF on this. I'd drive back to the store and sign the forms. I just don't want to get involved with the ATF. I don't see anything good that could come out of alerting them that there was a problem with the paperwork.
 
Why

would you want to place yourself in the middle of an issue between a FFL holder and the BATF? Once they go to the BATF you will be on the defence over a nonsense issue. Who knows how the BATF might decide to deal with your "refusal" to correct an obvious mistake.

Is your position right. Probably.
 
After reading a few more posts on this topic I feel as though I need to throw a little more cash in the kitty.

The ATF can scrutinize me all they wan't. I am legal and furthermore I know I am legal. Do I wan't to work with my dealer? Sure I always do, but not at the risk of being threatened, insulted, or harrased.

With the price of gas at roughly $4.00 per gallon it is a hassle for me to drive two hours each way to remedy an issue my dealer should have caught in the first place. That along with many other services is why I pay him. That is his job. I live in a very rural area. It might be different if my dealer made house calls but sadly he doesn't.

This would have to be at least partly your responsibility to be "in the middle" between the ATF and your dealer. It's not, so you aren't. Think about it. If the burden was on you, and you alone, do you really think the dealer would be going so crazy to get you to come back in and sign the paperwork? Of course not. Alturism no longer exists if it ever did. He is looking out for his interests.

I am not sure I like the Federal government any more than the next guy (in fact, I am sure I don't) but let's not get paranoid about this folks. Try your best not to miss anything and complete your paperwork correctly but do your homework and know your rights. From there it's academic.

JP
 
That's right! Know your rights, and screw the gun store! If they have ATF problems, oh well, who cares! If they get shut down and no longer sell guns, oh well! Who cares! They made a mistake, and you should know your rights, because you never make mistakes! Don't try and help them out, even if they compensate you for the gas, or make arrangements to have the paperwork sent to your area. Instead, know your rights, and to heck with them! :rolleyes:
 
Fremmer:

Read the above post again.

You will note that it is not a "screw the gun store" post.

It is a don't get "bullied" post.

You said "Don't try and help them out, even if they compensate you for the gas, or make arrangements to have the paperwork sent to your area. Instead, know your rights"

Who said that? See this and previous posts by me on this topic.

If you will notice by reading my posts earlier in this thread I did go out of my way twice in my own two situations to accomadate the dealer.

If you read the OP you will see that nothing was offered in the way of compensation but a threat. The OP couldn't go because of work. Is the gun store trying to work with that guy or bully him? Seems to me to be the later.

If you are a gun dealer and this situation occurs I will try and work with you. I always have. Threaten and Bully me by saying you are going to "report me" to the ATF and guess what? Your out of luck.

Finally, do I make mistakes? Sure. More than I can count. But unlike a lot of folks I insist on taking responsibility for my mistakes and don't look to blame someone else. If it was my job to make sure the paperwork was correct the dealer would be paying me.

JP
 
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Who's at fault here?

I'd pin the blame on the ATF. For posterity, that should be made part of this thread.

No one has mentioned the fact that the ATF has perverted a simple record keeping system into a means to deliberately entrap innocent citizens (dealers and buyers). This is far and away the greatest evil in this story. And for those who falsely claim that ATF is just carrying out the will of Congress; totally false. Talk to any congressman and senator, they'll tell you that they never intended the atrocities that rise out of things like record keeping errors. This crap is totally within the purview if ATF under their rule making authority, and should have been streamlined decades ago.

In this day and age, to have an archaic record keeping system (bound books), with ambiguous 4473 forms that invite errors, is really inexcusable. On light of that, to expect error-free performance, and criminal penalties for innocent errors, is beyond the pale. On top of that, to put so much emphasis on "gun tracing", is to elevate a questionable ethic invented by Josh Sugarmann's gun grabbers. The whole system reeks, beyond mere bureaucratic negligence, to willful malfeasance on the part of the ATF.

End result of this abortion of a system is to have citizens worrying about meaningless crap, and turning against one another. Identify the true enemy here (BATFU), and do what is necessary to steer clear of their idiocy. I'd gladly sacrifice the time and gas to clear it up, without involving the retards at all. I'd wager that FFL will become your friend as a result. :)
 
I'd wager that FFL will become your friend as a result.
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Well, the FFL (Big 5) is smallish sporting goods dealer (kind of a poor one at that). I doubt friends will be made. But neither will enemies, and sometimes we just have to be happy with that. ;)
 
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