Who's a Nazi?
- Thread starter pax
- Start date
FLAME ON !
The above article has just enough truth in it to make it sound credible by "ringing a bell" in the minds of those who haven't read any world history since High School. The few grains of truth in the article are far outweighed by enough BS to fertilize my rose bushes for a year.
IMHO, this thing was probably written as bait by a liberal Democrat to try to sucker one of us into running with it (and thereby making a fool of himself). If Mr Ruthford does exist and if he wrote the article seriously, he is either senile or stupid.
There are enough real parallels between the Nazi and Democrat agenda to write a good and truthful article (albeit not so inflammatory) without inventing easily refuted lies.
Oh yeah, the Reichstag was burned ... NOT blown up. I guess the burning of the Reichstag didn't parallel Oklahoma City closely enough.
The above article has just enough truth in it to make it sound credible by "ringing a bell" in the minds of those who haven't read any world history since High School. The few grains of truth in the article are far outweighed by enough BS to fertilize my rose bushes for a year.
IMHO, this thing was probably written as bait by a liberal Democrat to try to sucker one of us into running with it (and thereby making a fool of himself). If Mr Ruthford does exist and if he wrote the article seriously, he is either senile or stupid.
There are enough real parallels between the Nazi and Democrat agenda to write a good and truthful article (albeit not so inflammatory) without inventing easily refuted lies.
Oh yeah, the Reichstag was burned ... NOT blown up. I guess the burning of the Reichstag didn't parallel Oklahoma City closely enough.
So what are the facts?
"The few grains of truth in the article are far outweighed by enough BS to fertilize my rose bushes for a year."
Enlighten us please. Inaccurate or intentionally false stories do us no good. Please be more specific about the false satements here.
"Oh yeah, the Reichstag was burned ... NOT blown up. I guess the burning of the Reichstag didn't parallel Oklahoma City closely enough."
I think DESTROYED is the point.
"The few grains of truth in the article are far outweighed by enough BS to fertilize my rose bushes for a year."
Enlighten us please. Inaccurate or intentionally false stories do us no good. Please be more specific about the false satements here.
"Oh yeah, the Reichstag was burned ... NOT blown up. I guess the burning of the Reichstag didn't parallel Oklahoma City closely enough."
I think DESTROYED is the point.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Well, the basic structure is factual. Obviously, words in various parts were chosen to emphasize the parallels with some events here. The fact that these parallels exist does not make a case for some consistent conspiracy, however.
To me, the primary difference is that many of our politicians used events after the fact, rather than caused the events. And that's a big difference.
Regards, Art
To me, the primary difference is that many of our politicians used events after the fact, rather than caused the events. And that's a big difference.
Regards, Art
Animal --
No flames here, just honest curiosity: what were the errors or lies you spotted in that article? Which parts were true? And what's your source?
Thanks,
pax
"Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young." -- Henry Ford
No flames here, just honest curiosity: what were the errors or lies you spotted in that article? Which parts were true? And what's your source?
Thanks,
pax
"Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young." -- Henry Ford
Well, you asked for it so here’s my response.
I didn't intend this one as a "flame" but I guess it might just be my nature. Pax, this was written before I saw your last post.
Maybe I was a little harsh in my previous post (I was in a bad mood at the time). It is my contention that anytime a pro-RKBA argument is made, especially when it uses history to attack the antis, the facts should be presented as flawlessly as possible. Good intentions do not matter when they come from our side. While the news media and "powers that be" are prone to overlook such errors from the HCI crowd , you can be assured that they will endeavor to paint us as liars and extremists who are willing to say anything to advance the "gun culture". The smallest error will be used against you. Glaring mistakes will guarantee defeat.
I have several problems with the above article beginning with the "I remember the Nazis" line. This insinuates that what follows comes from personal experience and is an attempt to lend credibility to what follows. Given the content of the body of the letter , I sincerely doubt the assertion. Maybe it should say "I remember reading about the Nazis but I’m a little fuzzy on the details."
My main objections are with the accuracy of "facts" presented. In almost every instance of a parallel drawn between nazi and democrat policy there exists at least some inaccuracy. From "mistakes" in the nomenclature of German law and a garbled timeline of events to outright inventions such as "Hitler ram-rodding an Emergency Anti-Terrorist act through parliament" the letter seeks to sway the reader with half-truths.
Call me paranoid, but I smell a rat. Saying the Reichstag was blown up will get you laughed at. Someone using this letter as factual could be caught unawares in an argument with an "anti" who knows a little history. I suspect that it may have been written by an "anti" for that purpose.
The word "Nazi" comes from NATIONALSOZIALISTISCHE DEUTSCHE ARBEITERPARTEI (nsdap), or National Socialist German Workers' Party It is a shortened form of "National Socialist". There is debate over who first coined the term.
German Police
The police forces of Nazi Germany were redundant and vastly more powerful than any U.S. agency of today. To achieve the level of power wielded by those forces, you would have to do something like combine ATF, FBI, NSA, CIA, and Fed. Marshals, run off a few copies of the result and then declare martial law. I personally believe that our "alphabet soup" of Fed. Agencies has too much power but comparing them to the Nazi police forces is like comparing the common cold to Pneumonia.
The SA or STURMABTEILUNG (German: "Assault Division"), byname STURMTRUPPEN, OR BRAUNHEMDEN (German: "Storm Troopers", or "Brownshirts") was a paramilitary organization of the Nazi Party which used violent intimidation to assist Adolf Hitler's rise to power. From January 1931, it was headed by Ernst Röhm , who held radical anti-capitalist notions and dreamed of building the SA into Germany's main military force. Under Röhm SA membership grew to 400,000 by 1932 and to about 2,000,000 by the time Hitler came to power in 1933.
During the early days of the Nazi regime, the SA carried out unchecked street violence against Jews and Nazi opponents. But it was eyed with suspicion by the regular army and by the wealthy industrialists, two groups whose support Hitler wanted desperately. Against Hitler's expressed wishes, Röhm continued to press for a "second Nazi revolution" of a socialist character. On June 30, 1934, DIE NACHT DER LANGEN MESSER (German: "Night of the Long Knives"), Hitler, using SS forces, carried out a blood purge of the SA. Röhm and many SA leaders were executed. Thereafter the SA continued to exist but ceased to play a major political role in Nazi affairs.
The Gestapo or GEHEIME STAATSPOLIZEI (German: Secret State Police),was the political police of Nazi Germany. The Gestapo ruthlessly eliminated opposition to the Nazis within Germany and its occupied territories. The Gestapo operated without civil restraints; it had the authority of "preventative arrest," and its actions were not subject to judicial appeal.
The SS or SCHUTZSTAFFEL (German: "Protective Echelon"), the black-uniformed elite corps of the Nazi Party. The SS was divided mainly into two groups: the Allgemeine-SS (General SS) and the Waffen-SS (Armed SS).
The Allgemeine-SS dealt mainly with police and "racial" matters. Its most important division was the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA; Reich Security Central Office), which was made up of the Ordnungspolizei (Orpo; Order Police) and the Sicherheitspolizei (Sipo; Security Police), which, in turn, was divided into the Kriminalpolizei (Kripo; Criminal Police) and the dreaded Gestapo. The RSHA also included the Sicherheitsdienst (SD; Security Service), a security department in charge of foreign and domestic intelligence and espionage.
The Waffen-SS was made up of three subgroups: the Leibstandarte, Hitler's personal bodyguard; the Totenkopfverbände (Death's-Head Battalions), which administered the concentration camps; and the Verfügungstruppen (Disposition Troops), which swelled to 39 divisions in World War II and which, serving as elite combat troops alongside the regular army, gained a reputation as fanatical fighters.
TIMELINE:
One of my objections to the above letter is the timeline of events presented. Here is a more accurate account .
April 13, 1928: Law on Firearms and Ammunition was passed by a center-right, freely elected German government (Weimar Republic) that wanted to curb "gang activity," mostly violent street fights between Nazi party and Communist party thugs. All firearm owners and their firearms had to be registered.
Jan. 30, 1933 : The president of the German republic, Paul von Hindenburg, names Hitler chancellor.
Feb. 27, 1933: the Reichstag (German Parliament building) is burned.
Feb. 28, 1933, the day after the fire, Chancellor Hitler persuaded the German President to issue an emergency decree "for the Protection of the People and the State," which suspended until further notice several sections of the constitution. (the republic’s constitution allowed the president to do this in cases of national emergency) The decree declared it a criminal act to provoke or incite an act contrary to public welfare. It eliminated freedom of the person, the freedoms of speech, press, assembly, association, the right to privacy in mail and telephones, and the warrant and due process requirements for searches and seizures of private property.
March 5, 1933: elections gave the Nazi Party 44 percent of the votes, and further unscrupulous tactics on Hitler's part turned the voting balance in the Reichstag in the Nazis' favor.
March 13, 1933 : Josef Goebbles appointed to the position of Reich Minister for Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, which gave him total control of the communications media - i.e. radio, press, publishing, cinema and the other arts.
March 23, 1933: the Reichstag passed the Enabling Act, which "enabled" Hitler's government to issue decrees independently of the Reichstag and the presidency; Hitler effectively assumed dictatorial powers (with Hindenburg having veto power). In the Enabling Act, the legislative powers of parliament were transferred to the Reich Cabinet by a vote of 444 to 94, sanctioning the dictatorship.
May 10, 1933: Josef Goebbles staged the "great burning of the books" in Berlin, where the works of Jewish, Marxist and other "subversive" authors were publicly burned in huge bonfires.
July 14, 1933 : Reich Cabinet declared the Nazi Party to be the only political party in Germany.
June 30, 1934 : DIE NACHT DER LANGEN MESSER (German: "Night of the Long Knives"), Hitler, using SS forces, carried out a blood purge of the SA. Röhm and many SA leaders were executed. Thereafter the SA continued to exist but ceased to play a major political role in Nazi affairs. This ended the influence of the socialist or "left wing" of the Nazi Party.
June 30, 1934 : execution of Ernst Röhm and other rebellious SA leaders at this time. Thereafter, Hitler's word was the supreme and undisputed command in the party. The socialist arm of the party was crushed.
Aug. 2, 1934: the death of Hindenburg . Hitler took the titles of Führer ("Leader"), chancellor, and commander in chief of the army, and he remained leader of the Nazi Party as well. Party membership became mandatory for all higher civil servants and bureaucrats
March 18, 1938: The Nazi Weapons Law of 1938 replaced the Law on Firearms and Ammunition of April 13, 1928. Firearms ownership was restricted to Nazi party members and other "reliable" people. The 1938 Nazi law barred Jews from businesses involving firearms.
Nov. 9, 1938: "Crystal Night".
November 10. 1938: new regulations under the Weapons Law specifically barred Jews from owning ANY weapons, even clubs and knives.
Nazi Gun Control
the Nazis did not invent "gun control" in Germany. The Nazis inherited gun control and then perfected it. They inherited lists of firearm owners and their firearms when they "lawfully" took over in March 1933. The Nazis used these inherited registration lists to seize privately held firearms from persons who were not "reliable." Knowing exactly who owned which firearms, the Nazis had only to revoke the annual ownership permits or decline to renew them.
In closing
IMNSHO The above letter has far too many errors to be a viable argument for our cause. It bends the facts to the breaking point. The right-wing vs. left wing argument doesn’t work. The nazis were an odd mixture of both… sort of the evil of both worlds. Socialist monsters? Yes, until1934. Then they were just monsters.
As for the comment about Republicans, patriots, or militias , at least they were definitely not Republicans. They saw themselves as the ultimate in patriotism. They preached the subordination of the individual to the state, unswerving loyalty, and blind obedience to leaders. Militias ? The SA and SS both began as private paramilitary organizations.
Let me add here that I am VERY pro-RKBA, vote Republican almost without exception, consider myself a patriot of the U.S.A., and have no problems with militias as long as they do not advocate the violent overthrow of the U.S. govt.
The truth is on our side. Use truth, the whole truth and nothing but to win. For those of you who would still use this letter to attempt to sway others, consider this quote :
"It is part of a great leader's genius to make even widely separated adversaries appear as if they belonged to but one category, because among weakly and undecided characters the recognition of various enemies all too easily marks the beginning of doubt of one's own rightness."
These are the words of Adolf Hitler.
Please forgive me for the rambling nature and length of this post.
Butch
I didn't intend this one as a "flame" but I guess it might just be my nature. Pax, this was written before I saw your last post.
Maybe I was a little harsh in my previous post (I was in a bad mood at the time). It is my contention that anytime a pro-RKBA argument is made, especially when it uses history to attack the antis, the facts should be presented as flawlessly as possible. Good intentions do not matter when they come from our side. While the news media and "powers that be" are prone to overlook such errors from the HCI crowd , you can be assured that they will endeavor to paint us as liars and extremists who are willing to say anything to advance the "gun culture". The smallest error will be used against you. Glaring mistakes will guarantee defeat.
I have several problems with the above article beginning with the "I remember the Nazis" line. This insinuates that what follows comes from personal experience and is an attempt to lend credibility to what follows. Given the content of the body of the letter , I sincerely doubt the assertion. Maybe it should say "I remember reading about the Nazis but I’m a little fuzzy on the details."
My main objections are with the accuracy of "facts" presented. In almost every instance of a parallel drawn between nazi and democrat policy there exists at least some inaccuracy. From "mistakes" in the nomenclature of German law and a garbled timeline of events to outright inventions such as "Hitler ram-rodding an Emergency Anti-Terrorist act through parliament" the letter seeks to sway the reader with half-truths.
Call me paranoid, but I smell a rat. Saying the Reichstag was blown up will get you laughed at. Someone using this letter as factual could be caught unawares in an argument with an "anti" who knows a little history. I suspect that it may have been written by an "anti" for that purpose.
The word "Nazi" comes from NATIONALSOZIALISTISCHE DEUTSCHE ARBEITERPARTEI (nsdap), or National Socialist German Workers' Party It is a shortened form of "National Socialist". There is debate over who first coined the term.
German Police
The police forces of Nazi Germany were redundant and vastly more powerful than any U.S. agency of today. To achieve the level of power wielded by those forces, you would have to do something like combine ATF, FBI, NSA, CIA, and Fed. Marshals, run off a few copies of the result and then declare martial law. I personally believe that our "alphabet soup" of Fed. Agencies has too much power but comparing them to the Nazi police forces is like comparing the common cold to Pneumonia.
The SA or STURMABTEILUNG (German: "Assault Division"), byname STURMTRUPPEN, OR BRAUNHEMDEN (German: "Storm Troopers", or "Brownshirts") was a paramilitary organization of the Nazi Party which used violent intimidation to assist Adolf Hitler's rise to power. From January 1931, it was headed by Ernst Röhm , who held radical anti-capitalist notions and dreamed of building the SA into Germany's main military force. Under Röhm SA membership grew to 400,000 by 1932 and to about 2,000,000 by the time Hitler came to power in 1933.
During the early days of the Nazi regime, the SA carried out unchecked street violence against Jews and Nazi opponents. But it was eyed with suspicion by the regular army and by the wealthy industrialists, two groups whose support Hitler wanted desperately. Against Hitler's expressed wishes, Röhm continued to press for a "second Nazi revolution" of a socialist character. On June 30, 1934, DIE NACHT DER LANGEN MESSER (German: "Night of the Long Knives"), Hitler, using SS forces, carried out a blood purge of the SA. Röhm and many SA leaders were executed. Thereafter the SA continued to exist but ceased to play a major political role in Nazi affairs.
The Gestapo or GEHEIME STAATSPOLIZEI (German: Secret State Police),was the political police of Nazi Germany. The Gestapo ruthlessly eliminated opposition to the Nazis within Germany and its occupied territories. The Gestapo operated without civil restraints; it had the authority of "preventative arrest," and its actions were not subject to judicial appeal.
The SS or SCHUTZSTAFFEL (German: "Protective Echelon"), the black-uniformed elite corps of the Nazi Party. The SS was divided mainly into two groups: the Allgemeine-SS (General SS) and the Waffen-SS (Armed SS).
The Allgemeine-SS dealt mainly with police and "racial" matters. Its most important division was the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA; Reich Security Central Office), which was made up of the Ordnungspolizei (Orpo; Order Police) and the Sicherheitspolizei (Sipo; Security Police), which, in turn, was divided into the Kriminalpolizei (Kripo; Criminal Police) and the dreaded Gestapo. The RSHA also included the Sicherheitsdienst (SD; Security Service), a security department in charge of foreign and domestic intelligence and espionage.
The Waffen-SS was made up of three subgroups: the Leibstandarte, Hitler's personal bodyguard; the Totenkopfverbände (Death's-Head Battalions), which administered the concentration camps; and the Verfügungstruppen (Disposition Troops), which swelled to 39 divisions in World War II and which, serving as elite combat troops alongside the regular army, gained a reputation as fanatical fighters.
TIMELINE:
One of my objections to the above letter is the timeline of events presented. Here is a more accurate account .
April 13, 1928: Law on Firearms and Ammunition was passed by a center-right, freely elected German government (Weimar Republic) that wanted to curb "gang activity," mostly violent street fights between Nazi party and Communist party thugs. All firearm owners and their firearms had to be registered.
Jan. 30, 1933 : The president of the German republic, Paul von Hindenburg, names Hitler chancellor.
Feb. 27, 1933: the Reichstag (German Parliament building) is burned.
Feb. 28, 1933, the day after the fire, Chancellor Hitler persuaded the German President to issue an emergency decree "for the Protection of the People and the State," which suspended until further notice several sections of the constitution. (the republic’s constitution allowed the president to do this in cases of national emergency) The decree declared it a criminal act to provoke or incite an act contrary to public welfare. It eliminated freedom of the person, the freedoms of speech, press, assembly, association, the right to privacy in mail and telephones, and the warrant and due process requirements for searches and seizures of private property.
March 5, 1933: elections gave the Nazi Party 44 percent of the votes, and further unscrupulous tactics on Hitler's part turned the voting balance in the Reichstag in the Nazis' favor.
March 13, 1933 : Josef Goebbles appointed to the position of Reich Minister for Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, which gave him total control of the communications media - i.e. radio, press, publishing, cinema and the other arts.
March 23, 1933: the Reichstag passed the Enabling Act, which "enabled" Hitler's government to issue decrees independently of the Reichstag and the presidency; Hitler effectively assumed dictatorial powers (with Hindenburg having veto power). In the Enabling Act, the legislative powers of parliament were transferred to the Reich Cabinet by a vote of 444 to 94, sanctioning the dictatorship.
May 10, 1933: Josef Goebbles staged the "great burning of the books" in Berlin, where the works of Jewish, Marxist and other "subversive" authors were publicly burned in huge bonfires.
July 14, 1933 : Reich Cabinet declared the Nazi Party to be the only political party in Germany.
June 30, 1934 : DIE NACHT DER LANGEN MESSER (German: "Night of the Long Knives"), Hitler, using SS forces, carried out a blood purge of the SA. Röhm and many SA leaders were executed. Thereafter the SA continued to exist but ceased to play a major political role in Nazi affairs. This ended the influence of the socialist or "left wing" of the Nazi Party.
June 30, 1934 : execution of Ernst Röhm and other rebellious SA leaders at this time. Thereafter, Hitler's word was the supreme and undisputed command in the party. The socialist arm of the party was crushed.
Aug. 2, 1934: the death of Hindenburg . Hitler took the titles of Führer ("Leader"), chancellor, and commander in chief of the army, and he remained leader of the Nazi Party as well. Party membership became mandatory for all higher civil servants and bureaucrats
March 18, 1938: The Nazi Weapons Law of 1938 replaced the Law on Firearms and Ammunition of April 13, 1928. Firearms ownership was restricted to Nazi party members and other "reliable" people. The 1938 Nazi law barred Jews from businesses involving firearms.
Nov. 9, 1938: "Crystal Night".
November 10. 1938: new regulations under the Weapons Law specifically barred Jews from owning ANY weapons, even clubs and knives.
Nazi Gun Control
the Nazis did not invent "gun control" in Germany. The Nazis inherited gun control and then perfected it. They inherited lists of firearm owners and their firearms when they "lawfully" took over in March 1933. The Nazis used these inherited registration lists to seize privately held firearms from persons who were not "reliable." Knowing exactly who owned which firearms, the Nazis had only to revoke the annual ownership permits or decline to renew them.
In closing
IMNSHO The above letter has far too many errors to be a viable argument for our cause. It bends the facts to the breaking point. The right-wing vs. left wing argument doesn’t work. The nazis were an odd mixture of both… sort of the evil of both worlds. Socialist monsters? Yes, until1934. Then they were just monsters.
As for the comment about Republicans, patriots, or militias , at least they were definitely not Republicans. They saw themselves as the ultimate in patriotism. They preached the subordination of the individual to the state, unswerving loyalty, and blind obedience to leaders. Militias ? The SA and SS both began as private paramilitary organizations.
Let me add here that I am VERY pro-RKBA, vote Republican almost without exception, consider myself a patriot of the U.S.A., and have no problems with militias as long as they do not advocate the violent overthrow of the U.S. govt.
The truth is on our side. Use truth, the whole truth and nothing but to win. For those of you who would still use this letter to attempt to sway others, consider this quote :
"It is part of a great leader's genius to make even widely separated adversaries appear as if they belonged to but one category, because among weakly and undecided characters the recognition of various enemies all too easily marks the beginning of doubt of one's own rightness."
These are the words of Adolf Hitler.
Please forgive me for the rambling nature and length of this post.
Butch
Stephen Ewing
New member
What's wrong? AFAIK, the following jumps out:
Nazi was not slang for any verb; it was simply the abbreviation for National Socialist Deutsche Arbeiter Partei/National Socialists German Workers Party, which is a mouthful. Gestapo is a similar abbreviation.
The Nazis weren't as big on nationalizing industry as this makes out: Herr Krupp spent time in jail after the Nuremburg trials for supporting Hitler in his rise to power in eschange for the promise of wealth later on. Willi Messerschmitt was nearly ruined by his poor relationship with Ernst Udet, but nobody tried to take over his factory. Eventually, the State supplied some darn cheap labor to privately owned industry.......
Hitler did not count the academic elite amongst his followers at all. He frequently railed against "intellectuals," feeling that Jews had gotten too involved in higher education. Take a look at Hitler Jugend training progams and contrast it with academic emphasis.
"Conservative" and "Republic" are mutually exclusive terms in Weimar and Nazi Germany. The republic was foisted upon an unwilling Germany following the loss of WW1, and they did everything they could think of to get rid of the darned thing. The election of Hindenburg was about defeating the spirit of the Republic and bringing back one of the most loved figures of the conservative monarcy. Crystallnacht was the culmination of a policy that had nothing to do with "conservatives," BTW. It was about terrorizing Jews, and maybe the odd gypsy, gay, etc.
The Nazis did not fear open insurrection of the Jews; quite the contrary, they would have welcomed it as they did in Warsaw in '44. The Nazi, ah, attitude manifested itself with a belief that the Jews would "poison" Aryan culture, and that the "cowardly" Jews would dupe somebody else into doing the dirty work. Remember that FDR was the tool of "World Jewry." Think Blues Brothers: "The Jew is using the black against, you, Whitey!" if you want an example.
"Wermotten?" WTF? Wehrmacht? The Heer had a tradition of, and bears responsibility for, staying out of civilian affairs to such an extent that it did nothing more than let the SS borrow some toys for the Night of the Long Knives. The Kriegsmarine was so traumatized by the way it ended WW1 that it never got near politics or internal affairs ever again.
The Heer (army), not the Gestapo is most associated with the jack-boots and frequently bears the name. Granted, the Heer did some reprehensible things in conjunction with the SS in Russia '41-'45, but that's outside the scope of the topic as they never cooperated with the Gestapo in oppressing Germans. Incidentally, the boots predate the Third Reich by a little bit.
The only time I'm aware of police being shot was in the waning days of the war when deserters were a problem, and Himmler's flying courts-martial got very, very, very trigger-happy. It's also nearly impossible for one group to have been simultaneously assaulted by the SS and the SA.
I don't recall the BATF or the F.B.I. ever having armored divisions....... They haven't quite started death camps or Einsatzgruppen, either. Heck, they're not even responsible for the President's personal security.
Mind you, I'd like to nominate the S.S. to take care of Clinton's personal security.
Please read the Reich Concordat, look at Franz von Papen's resume, and consider the dynamics of alliance with Italy before calling Hitler (overtly) anti-Christian. Granted, he sent a few outspoken ministers to concentration (not death AFAIK) camps. I suspect this is just Himmler's eccentricities being blown up to represent Reich policy.
Partisan resistance fighters? In Germany? Sure the occasional lone assassin tried something, and a German army (remember that evil Wehrmacht?) effort in the summer of '41 failed because of a faulty British timer, but aside from some scattered spies and the odd saboteur, not much there.
I could go on for a while longer and get even further off-topic, but, yeah, I'm slightly fascinated by what happens when a great people goes horribly wrong. We could tread a similar path yet, but you have to be very liberal with your comparisons to say we're transitioning from Weimar into Nazi Germany.
Steve
Nazi was not slang for any verb; it was simply the abbreviation for National Socialist Deutsche Arbeiter Partei/National Socialists German Workers Party, which is a mouthful. Gestapo is a similar abbreviation.
The Nazis weren't as big on nationalizing industry as this makes out: Herr Krupp spent time in jail after the Nuremburg trials for supporting Hitler in his rise to power in eschange for the promise of wealth later on. Willi Messerschmitt was nearly ruined by his poor relationship with Ernst Udet, but nobody tried to take over his factory. Eventually, the State supplied some darn cheap labor to privately owned industry.......
Hitler did not count the academic elite amongst his followers at all. He frequently railed against "intellectuals," feeling that Jews had gotten too involved in higher education. Take a look at Hitler Jugend training progams and contrast it with academic emphasis.
"Conservative" and "Republic" are mutually exclusive terms in Weimar and Nazi Germany. The republic was foisted upon an unwilling Germany following the loss of WW1, and they did everything they could think of to get rid of the darned thing. The election of Hindenburg was about defeating the spirit of the Republic and bringing back one of the most loved figures of the conservative monarcy. Crystallnacht was the culmination of a policy that had nothing to do with "conservatives," BTW. It was about terrorizing Jews, and maybe the odd gypsy, gay, etc.
The Nazis did not fear open insurrection of the Jews; quite the contrary, they would have welcomed it as they did in Warsaw in '44. The Nazi, ah, attitude manifested itself with a belief that the Jews would "poison" Aryan culture, and that the "cowardly" Jews would dupe somebody else into doing the dirty work. Remember that FDR was the tool of "World Jewry." Think Blues Brothers: "The Jew is using the black against, you, Whitey!" if you want an example.
"Wermotten?" WTF? Wehrmacht? The Heer had a tradition of, and bears responsibility for, staying out of civilian affairs to such an extent that it did nothing more than let the SS borrow some toys for the Night of the Long Knives. The Kriegsmarine was so traumatized by the way it ended WW1 that it never got near politics or internal affairs ever again.
The Heer (army), not the Gestapo is most associated with the jack-boots and frequently bears the name. Granted, the Heer did some reprehensible things in conjunction with the SS in Russia '41-'45, but that's outside the scope of the topic as they never cooperated with the Gestapo in oppressing Germans. Incidentally, the boots predate the Third Reich by a little bit.
The only time I'm aware of police being shot was in the waning days of the war when deserters were a problem, and Himmler's flying courts-martial got very, very, very trigger-happy. It's also nearly impossible for one group to have been simultaneously assaulted by the SS and the SA.
I don't recall the BATF or the F.B.I. ever having armored divisions....... They haven't quite started death camps or Einsatzgruppen, either. Heck, they're not even responsible for the President's personal security.
Mind you, I'd like to nominate the S.S. to take care of Clinton's personal security.
Please read the Reich Concordat, look at Franz von Papen's resume, and consider the dynamics of alliance with Italy before calling Hitler (overtly) anti-Christian. Granted, he sent a few outspoken ministers to concentration (not death AFAIK) camps. I suspect this is just Himmler's eccentricities being blown up to represent Reich policy.
Partisan resistance fighters? In Germany? Sure the occasional lone assassin tried something, and a German army (remember that evil Wehrmacht?) effort in the summer of '41 failed because of a faulty British timer, but aside from some scattered spies and the odd saboteur, not much there.
I could go on for a while longer and get even further off-topic, but, yeah, I'm slightly fascinated by what happens when a great people goes horribly wrong. We could tread a similar path yet, but you have to be very liberal with your comparisons to say we're transitioning from Weimar into Nazi Germany.
Steve
sck
Hey, you don't get off that easy!
Let us hear your views on the subject. I'm just a dumb carpenter from Mississippi. I'd like to see you support (or refute) the letter. You might find that you have to choose between overesimplification and writing a book.
Sock it to us, Steve!
Pompous? Gee ! I hope yer talkin' 'bout me ! That There moniker would mean I'm a social climbin' fer sure!
All in good fun,
Butch
Hey, you don't get off that easy!
Let us hear your views on the subject. I'm just a dumb carpenter from Mississippi. I'd like to see you support (or refute) the letter. You might find that you have to choose between overesimplification and writing a book.
Sock it to us, Steve!
Pompous? Gee ! I hope yer talkin' 'bout me ! That There moniker would mean I'm a social climbin' fer sure!
All in good fun,
Butch
Stephen Ewing
New member
Heck, I thought I both oversimplified and wrote a book anyway.
The gist of the whole thing is that it's very, very dangerous to make Nazi comparisons, and it usually blows up in your face.
Steve
The gist of the whole thing is that it's very, very dangerous to make Nazi comparisons, and it usually blows up in your face.
Steve
Nazi, what does that REALLY mean??? Werent there decent rank and file people in the German Army that we refer to as "Nazis"?? Indeed their were.
Besides even with the worse "Nazis" in Germany, many of whom come to mind, I think it is a phrase that is way to humble for the likes of ALOT of our present day "Elected" Government officals. I say this in light of what they say "they will do", what they really do. How they change things around and stab people in the backs, commit various crimes against the people, and even felony crimes! Yet they DO NOT suffer in any way at all (i.e. jail-time, public flogging, tar&feathering, kicking them in the ass, ect). The people just let them keep going about their murderous ways with-out doing a thing. Who says "We The People" have any say in the USSA anymore? This country is suppose to be FOR the PEOPLE, NOT the Government for the Government.
So in closing I think calling some persons a "Nazi" is to nice a term.
Ok rant mode off-line.
Besides even with the worse "Nazis" in Germany, many of whom come to mind, I think it is a phrase that is way to humble for the likes of ALOT of our present day "Elected" Government officals. I say this in light of what they say "they will do", what they really do. How they change things around and stab people in the backs, commit various crimes against the people, and even felony crimes! Yet they DO NOT suffer in any way at all (i.e. jail-time, public flogging, tar&feathering, kicking them in the ass, ect). The people just let them keep going about their murderous ways with-out doing a thing. Who says "We The People" have any say in the USSA anymore? This country is suppose to be FOR the PEOPLE, NOT the Government for the Government.
So in closing I think calling some persons a "Nazi" is to nice a term.
Ok rant mode off-line.
What is interesting is how many different ways one can define what makes one a NAZI and how those descriptions also describe other types of governments including Communism, Lennism, Marxism, Socialism, Facism, and lets not forget democracies!
The traits of each of these are the same, degradation then elimination of the "targeted" group(s), societies "rights" over the individual "rights", and let us not forget "the ends justify the means".
I realize these are very general, but the details are not very important. You see when so much time and effort is taken examining the details, valuble time flys by and they chip more and more away this also causes us to divide ourselves instead of just agreeing that these forms of governments are not healthy to individuals, like us.
My point is quit mulling of time tables and who did what.
Instead of that stuff, each of us find just one person who is fearful of firearms or is anti-gun and invite them to go shooting. One person at a time. Spend your limited time on this earth wisely, don't squander it.
The traits of each of these are the same, degradation then elimination of the "targeted" group(s), societies "rights" over the individual "rights", and let us not forget "the ends justify the means".
I realize these are very general, but the details are not very important. You see when so much time and effort is taken examining the details, valuble time flys by and they chip more and more away this also causes us to divide ourselves instead of just agreeing that these forms of governments are not healthy to individuals, like us.
My point is quit mulling of time tables and who did what.
Instead of that stuff, each of us find just one person who is fearful of firearms or is anti-gun and invite them to go shooting. One person at a time. Spend your limited time on this earth wisely, don't squander it.
markwiz
My point is : Don't use this type of argument unless you get the facts as perfect as you can. Different people have different methods of persuasion . IMO Each should use the method at which they are most adept.
Personally, I tend to steer away from this type of tactic in favor of the "take them shooting approach."
I heartily agree that introducing people to the shooting sports (and sportsmen) goes a long way towards quelling their fears.
Best wishes,
Butch
[Edited by animal on 01-03-2001 at 08:53 PM]
My point is : Don't use this type of argument unless you get the facts as perfect as you can. Different people have different methods of persuasion . IMO Each should use the method at which they are most adept.
Personally, I tend to steer away from this type of tactic in favor of the "take them shooting approach."
I heartily agree that introducing people to the shooting sports (and sportsmen) goes a long way towards quelling their fears.
Best wishes,
Butch
[Edited by animal on 01-03-2001 at 08:53 PM]