Who'd want a pistol like this?

N

Nightcrawler

New member
Just something I've thought about from time to time. Let's pretend the "assault" weapons ban had never happened, and non-castrated magazines were legal in the bulk of the states.

Who here would be interested in the following:

Semiautomatic Pistol
-Caliber 7.62x25mm Tokarev
-Barrel length 4.7"
-Single or Double Action
-Single Action Only and Double Action Only versions available.
-Ambidextrious controls.
-20 round double stack magazine, 25 and 30 round magazines available (both of these protrude from the grip.)
-Rated for +P and +P+ ammunition.

Obviously, more compact versions would probably be made available. If the pistol was popular enough, I'm sure good ammo makers like Cor-Bon would start making ammo for it. I'm sure Cor-Bon would make a round that pushed a 74 grain bullet to almost 2,000 feet per second, or something like that. Ideally, the gun would be able to handle the pressures of being hotloaded.

Okay, okay, it's not revoultionary, but it is different. And 7.62x25 Tok seems to have a cult following here on TFL.

Best of all, let's say CZ made the pistol and it retailed for $385.00. :D
 
On the ancient www.makarov.com board, a member had a BHP converted to 7.62x25. I'm not sure if magazine capacity changed or not, but he was very pleased with the result.

It would be nice if the pistol could accept PPsh magazines. In that case, it wouldn't suck so much to receiver new 10-rnd mags with the pistol.

Oh yeah, I'd like such an animal. Of course, I would like a 7.62x25 CAR upper, too.
 
Well, Ruger made a pistol like that for awhile. I guess there wasn't much demand, because they never made many of them.

It was one of their P series pistols and came with a 7.26x25 and a 9x19mm barrel.
 
Ruger and the BHP both were made in limited numbers in .30 Luger, not .30 Mauser/7.62x25mm Tok. These are two different cartridges with different dimensions. A BHP will not allow a cartridge the length of the 7.62x25 to fit in its magazine, and a so chambered pistol would then be a single shot.

30 Luger is little more than the 9mm Luger bottlenecked to .30 cal (though historically, this is the reverse of how the two evolved) and is similar in OAL, so the aforementioned weapons usally require only a barrel swap. This is no cream puff cartridge, giving velocities just a bit slower compared to the Tokarev. If the guns could take the strain, a high pressure .30 Luger should give impressive velocities. I would think that a large frame EAA Witness or similarly sized .45/10mm platform would allow conversion to the 7.62 Tok, though.

Resident Experimental Handloader Clark has come to the conclusion that the Russian Tokarev is stronger than his CZ52s, after destroying some of the Czech guns with massively overloaded cartridges. It seems that the relatively thin breech area is the culprit more than the roller lock mechanism. His Toks have taken severe overloads and stayed intact.

With that and the orginal theme in mind, I wouldn't mind a double stack 15+1 7.62 Tok variant, keeping the same barrel/lug interaction and demonstrated strength , with a more ergonomic grip(CZ,BHP?), better sights, and functional CZ/1911 Thumb safety. Single Action Only is fine with me. Oh and a reversible mag release, so I can use my index finger to drop the mag.
 
*Jumping up and down, waving hands like a loon*

I'd want one, or two!
I love the 7.62mm Tok round; it goes fast, accurate, and BOOM!
:D
What would be really swell would be if Kel-Tec then decided to make a version of their folding carbine that took the mags from your fanstasy gun.

The only downside that I'd see (and I'm picking nits here) is that the grip would be huge. The grip on a CZ-52 is already fairly long from front to back, but thin from side to side. If there were to be a wider grip for a double stack magazine, the grip on the gun would be rather wide.
Having said that, I think that decent ergonomics would go a long way to making the gun comfortable to hold, and I would definately like to have one.
:D
 
I would think that a large frame EAA Witness or similarly sized .45/10mm platform would allow conversion to the 7.62 Tok, though.
Click to expand...

My fishing boat only need one anchor, and I've already got one. :barf:


As for the idea, would this round give any improvements over the .357sig or other recent bottle-neck efforts besides case-diameter dimensions? What exactly would a hot .357sig run at 75grs? Would this new hopped-up 7.62x25 be ballistically superior?
 
You could just try necking down a full length 10mm case to 30 caliber.

I think that would do the trick and the ammo should work in any 10mm pistol with just a barrel swap.

Actually, I believe this has been done--at least I seem to remember seeing something about it.

Cthulhu,

You're right about the Ruger--I just slipped a mental cog there...
 
The OAL for the 7.62x25mm is around 1.36", while that of the .45 is around 1.25". Shouldn't cause that much difference in the grip frame. The TT-33 Tok's grip isn't that long, and a double stack Tok grip wouldn't be any wider than a 9mm doublestack, as they have similar case head dimensions.

I suggested the EAA Witness platform for its good grip, its safety in the proper location, and ability to fire cartridges of the OAL close to the Tok. I'd say it is no more of a boat anchor than the 1911 Govt, CZ-97B or other fullsize steelframe pistols people normally lug about. While a heavy pistol firing a lightweight, highspeed cartridge would certainly help in terms of recoil control, an polymer frame would help, both in reducing weight and the thickness of the grip.

Why not use a .357 sig with light bullets? How about sectional density. A 75 grain .355 diameter bullet is pretty bad (0.085). Granted, a 86grn .308 bullet isn't much better (0.130) but it has been shown to give dramatic penetration when fired at 1400fps+. Also the .357 sig has the .40 S&W base dimensions, so adouble stack mag would hold less rounds than a comprable 7.62 magazine. Case strength is another. Clark demonstrated that his hot .357Sig loads couldn't even come close to matching ultra hot 9mm or 7.62 Tok loads.

Whenever you start necking down these larger base cartridges to get more case capacity for higher velocity, breach thrust becomes an issue. Ever wonder why a Thompson Contender can handle a .223 Remington, but not a .30'06, even though the .223 typically runs higher pressure? Breach thrust, from having a larger inside diameter at the case head, is large factor. Didn't the .224 BOZ batter the hell out of the Delta Elite that it was originally chambered in? Also, take the wider base of the .40S&W or 10mm parent cartridges, combined with the rather large feedramps and poorly supported cartridge bases seen in most modern handguns, you have the ingrediants for devestating case head seperations with high pressure cartridges.

I think I'm still leaning towards a Tokarev actioned, Single action, 15+1 pistol with a proper grip, index finger mag release, and working frame mounted safety.
 
JohnKSa,

Yup.

10mm necked down to .30 cal is called the .30 Armco. Some IPSC loons up in Canada make major with these things using .30 carbine bullets at ludicrous velocities. Theory behind it is much like that behind 9x25 Dillon; warp speed from tiny bullet plus 10mm gas pressure/volume to drive gigondo comp for zilch muzzle rise. Downside is supposedly that vicious straight-back recoil then causes tennis elbow and bursitis.
 
10mm necked down to .30 cal is called the .30 Armco. Some IPSC loons up in Canada make major with these things using .30 carbine bullets at ludicrous velocities. Theory behind it is much like that behind 9x25 Dillon; warp speed from tiny bullet plus 10mm gas pressure/volume to drive gigondo comp for zilch muzzle rise. Downside is supposedly that vicious straight-back recoil then causes tennis elbow and bursitis.
Click to expand...

Seems like you could have a pretty decent well-behaved low pressure round if you didn't feel the need to run the velocity too high or get the bullet weight past 100 grains.

I'm guessing it would still be pretty nice to shoot with standard weight Tokarev bullets running below 1800 fps. With a 6" barrel for a little extra muzzle weight, I'll bet a Glock 20 would handle a load like that gracefully.

Good shooting,

John
 
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