Who here practices "forms" (kata, hyung, etc.)?

M

Matt Wallis

New member
I was just wondering how many people here practice forms as part of their training?

Also, does anyone know if forms training has always historically been a part of Asian MA? I know in the west, during the medieval and renaissance periods, there were two-man pre-set drills. And some solo practice techniques. But there was very little that could be considered a "Kata."

However, I know most Asian MA we practice today are also not really very old (not in their modern incarnation, anyway). Were forms only added relatively recently in their history? Or have they always been a part.

And back to our use of them... If anyone here does train with them, why? What use do you think they accomplish?

I myself do train with them and find them to be quite helpful. But I want to see what other's here think.

Regards,
Matt
 
Erich,

I know you were being tongue in cheek, which is cool. But I'm not interested in any volcanos! Heh, heh. I just really want to know what the knowledgable people here at TFL think.

BTW, I find it ironic, though pleasant, that the best martial arts discussion I've found on the web is at a gun site!

Regards,
Matt
 
Last edited:
I practice kata. They contain an extremely large amount of self-defense applications.

I don't know if "performing" a kata from start to finish has any substantial benefit, other than for the sake of memorization. The whole kata can basically considered to be a mnemonic device.

I think that to get the most out of them, it is best to take a portion of it and experiment. Work against different attacks, and see what happens. Forget about what the classification of the technique is (block, strike, etc...) and see what else it can do.

The key to get anything out of them is to become skilled at interpreting them. It would be difficult to see a lock or a throw without some knowledge of those things and a bit of experimentation. Once an interpretation is discovered, then it can be worked on with a partner to see if it "works", then practice as a drill.

Most of the application of the techniques found in kata are exceptionally brutal and practical. It probably depends to a large degree on how they have been developed and or modified. A lot of people are more interested in asthetics.

--Todd Dow
 
Personally, I have never been a advocate of katas. Doing a correographed set of movements will not help you to flow from one technique to another as well as others think. Your body develops muscle memory after so many repetitions of a movement. So if you practice for instance / Overhead block, reverse punch, roundhouse kick. Then your body will expect to do these techniques in this sequence. But if you need to change the techniques to another order or add or take away a technique, your body will not be so fluid. I believe in utilizing a training partner with focus mitts, thai pads or gloves and headgear to train in drills. I let the partner call the combinations and I perform them. The gloves and headgear are used for sparring or for defensive drilling for blocking, parrying, slipping, closing the distance, shooting in for a takedown, etc. So that you don't worry about being knocked senseless and can concentrate on technique. And I have always found it funny how the classes I've seen that teach katas, although they train for proper form and technique in the katas, the form and technique goes out the window when they spar.
 
I do not think that the kata that I have seen are really set up in the same way that one would approach sparring. They seem to be more self defense oriented, and more often than not involve a defense against one attack (per sequence) utilizing an interception/deflection technique, followed by a "softenting" technique (punch, knee, elbow, attack to eyes or genitals, etc...), then a lock or throw, followed by something to finish the opponent. This sequence would basically constitute a complete technique.

From the beginning of the technique, the opponent is usually kept at a somewhat close range, closer than what I would consider an normal sparring range. A string of mid to long range attacking techniques would not be the norm for a style which was based on kata.

Free sparring doesn't really have a much of a place in a kata based style, aside from dealing with spontaneity. Sparring has more to do with a dueling style situation (let's step outside) than self defense. Judo style free sparring would seem to make a lot more sense than karate point sparring for self defense. At least someone is actually trying to choke you ;)

--Todd Dow
 
When I was younger, I practice my H and T form (katas), and several kind of it. It helps to make myself having an imaginary foe, and how I execute my techiques. it is a form of exercise too which is like shadow boxing. But if we talk higher learning, it is the way we can put our hard and soft strength couple with a breathing control. Or to summarize it, it is just like a meditation also having an imaginary partner to fight or practice with.

A martial artist without knowing any kata or form cannot be considered having one of the best part of martial arts player.

The El Presidente in Gun fight, I do practice well before also, and I believe it helps also.

:)
 
Greetings Matt,

In answer to your question, I routinely practice forms as part of my training. As to why I do it... the shortest answer is that it's the way things are done in the Dojo where I study, but there's more to it than that which takes me to you second half of that question, i.e. What use do I think they accomplish?

My favorite quote on this subject is that individual techniques are like letters in an alphabet, kata is using those "letters" to form words and phrases. I take that to mean that no one technique exists in isolation, that they are intended to flow one after another. Kata's incorporate all of the individual techniques of a particular style into a set of predetermined drills.

Personally, the hallmark of a successful martial art is that it allows you to execute its techniques without having to devote any conscious thought to the process. This allows you to use the conscious part of your mind to focus on the elements of strategy and tactics in a confrontation be it on the mats in a Dojo or the asphalt of a parking lot.

The need for subconscious execution is what drives the seemingly endless repetition of kata in practice.

Matt, I am sadly ignorant of the history of forms training in the Asian MA. Like you, I would enjoy knowing the answer to that question.

Warmest Regards...
 
Matt,

First, there are fundamental differences between the kata practiced by different martial arts.

Some that use kata, do not use solo kata. If the kata involves moves against one opponent, then one opponent is used, if two then two opponents are used.

The martial arts that I am aware of that use kata in this fashion are traditional Japanese arts that predate 1868.

Karl Friday, in his book "Legacies of the Sword," discusses how kata practice was used traditionally. It was a three step process that spanned years of training ultimately becoming advanced randori.
 
Matt,

Although I study and teach Filipino martial arts, the only kata I practice is the first kata/form of Sam Jin Kung Fu. Properly done, it can be done as an isometric exercise. It teaches proper breathing and muscle control. Slowly "performing" each movement w/ accuracy, power, and controlled breathing enhances one's techniques. Think of it this way, the competitive shooters who practice drawing their guns from their holsters and firing are practicing a form or kata. If I remember correctly, the repetitive action forms a "muscle memory retention". They may be different actions, but they build the same discipline. Hope that makes sense.

Adrian
 
Sam Jin=Sanchin?

It sounds like Sam Jin is probably a precursor of the Okinawan-style kata Sanchin. It is used to build "internal" strenth. I'm not sure if, or how it works (or doesn't). It does, as you say, work as an isometric exercise, but it can be unhealthy to practice too often, or too hard if one is unaccustomed to doing it. I was instructed to limit practice of this kata to once a day. It can cause hemmoroids (spelling) and high blood pressure. A lot of the Naha style practitioners (styles that practice this as a core kata) die of heart attacks in their fifties. Proceed with caution!

--Todd Dow
 
Todd,

I practice the kata once a day after my training sessions. It's not something I would recommend for everyone because it does take a lot out of you. But it does have it's merits. Thanks for the heads up.

Adrian
 
There is nothing mystical about Kata or Hyung. They are, essentially, drills. Any kind of legitimate unarmed fighting system must have drills. Drills can be solo, as in Tae Kwon Do, Karate and boxing, or they can be partnered, as in Aikido, Judo and Kali for example.

I've stated this before, but IMO, a "martial art" must do three things:

1. Attribute-building: developing strength, speed, balance, power, etc.

2. Technique development: learning, memorizing and muscle-memorizing idiosyncratic techniques, sequences of techniques and "flows" or adaptive drills.

3. Sparring: enabling the ability to perform a subset of techniques against resisting and unpredictable opponent, particularly in as many "ranges of combat" as possible.

Basically, Kata, Hyung, forms or drills allow attribute-building and technique development. Techniques must always be learned in drill format first in order to muscle-memorize correct posture, sequence and leverage before they can used correctly in sparring sessions. In particular, "combative" type techniques which cannot be safely practiced in sparring/Randori can be practiced only in drills.

Sparring/Randori also builds attributes. More importantly, it teaches students how to actually pull off techniques against someone who isn't cooperating. Additionally, it lessens a student's fear of violent, unpredictable physical contact.

A "superior" martial art always strikes a good balance of the three elements. Otherwise, one ends up with highly distorted systems. For example, Aikido can be great in attribute-building and technique development, but because it is rarely, if ever, practiced in free sparring format, it does not teach the students to deal with actual, non-compliant opponents. Many "combatives" type systems also fail for the same reason - any system whose entire range of techniques are "too deadly to be used in sparring sessions" does not train its student to be able to actually perform them against fully resisting, unpredictable opponents.

Then there are many Judo clubs that have gone the other way completely - concentrating on Randori (and the drills or Katas of those techniques that are used only for Randori) for sportive purposes and completely neglecting the combative techniques of Judo that are taught in Kata format only (and admittedly useless for Olympic style competition).

When one factors in the fact that very few systems teach multi-range techniques, one is left with very few choices.

Skorzeny
 
I practice Kata regularly - it's a matter of being able to faithfully execute and instruct in the Art. I also practice Self Defense - it's a matter of stopping a physical threat if unavoidable or necessary. Some schools do both, some only one. Simple as that.
BRET
 
Been doing the lowest of the TKD poomses for about two weeks now. I don't know anything about the history and I can't really say if it will help me fight, but I think that parts of it can be helpful. If nothing else, if you practice Ki-Cho ten times per day, that's another 120 straight punches, 80 downblocks, 30 90-degree turns, etc. etc. etc. Also, I think it helps to be able to practice the simplest and most economical transition from one movement to another. If you just jumped into sparring, it would be hard to develop this. If you just drill each movement 100 times per day, you'd have each movement but not the transitions that tie them together.

And now that I have the steps memorized and am trying to do each as well as possible, I find myself really enjoying the form. It's a chance to let go and think about absolutely nothing except the movement.
 
poomse (korean forms) have been around for at least one thousand years......kata's were first practiced by monks in order to build the power and energy neccesary for the long periods of meditation and exercises they performed....they also found it helped them retain combative skills when there was no one to combat with.

In korea, forms were devised to practice techniques, both to refine them and for "muscle memory". They were also used so a student could show his master if and how well he knew certain techniques.

When done properly and with the right attitude, forms are highly benificial, the why's and what fors have been covered in previous posts.

In no way is there a direct application of forms to self-defense, that was never their purpose.......but forms are to self-defense is what shadow boxing is to boxing. The biggest misconception in forms is that you would apply those same techniques in the same way in an attack as you do while practicing forms. Think of practicing your forms in the way you would clean, inspect and repair your guns. While cleaning, inspecting and repairing (or for that matter just taking a gun apart to better know the gun) weapons is not a direct part of firing it in self-defense it does give the practitioner a better sense of what they posess.
 
I practice Buddha Hand Wing Chun, Beijing and Wu style Taiji, Fu and Chow style Ba Gua, Hebei Hsing Yi, and Liu Ho Ba Fa, in addition to Sanuces Ryu jiu jitsu and a smattering of kali, escrima, and silat. You bet I do forms!

To me, each form or set of forms is a code containing all the drills, techniques and movement principles of that system. Every complete system will contain every other system, it's just that certain principles or techniques are emphasized more in some than in others.
 
kungfool:
poomse (korean forms) have been around for at least one thousand years......
Click to expand...
Oh, not this again! Next you will tell me that Hwarang warriors practiced Hwarang-Do and that Tae Kwon Do was developed in Korea for a thousand years!
kata's were first practiced by monks in order to build the power and energy neccesary for the long periods of meditation and exercises they performed....
Click to expand...
Maybe at Shaolin Temple.
they also found it helped them retain combative skills when there was no one to combat with.
Click to expand...
I think I explained in a previous post that there must be both static (drills) and dynamic (sparring) training in order to be able to utilize them effectively. Drill training only results in...... dance (or gymnastics)!

Skorzeny
 
skorzeny.....yes.....there are paintings on ancient ruins with drawings depicting many of the same techniques that are in what has become taekwondo.....the drawings were done in sequence, showing a pattern to the movements, and as I said in an earlier posts, of course taekwondo has it's roots set deeply, (milineums). It's beginings can be traced back to the three kingdoms period in Korea. Of course, then it was not tae kwon do, it may not have even had a name, but to be sure, people in the Korean pennisula were practicing martial arts just as others were throughout Asia. It would be contradictatory to assume that every modern asian art does not have ancient beginings, though they often be inter-mixed with other styles. While I don't buy the whole story about the beginings of TKD, there is no doubt that martial arts were in Korea over 2000 years ago, albeit not as taekwondo. Argue till you are blue in the face if you wish, but asian martial arts ALL have roots that predate anyones present knowledge, so it's entirely speculation.

kata's were first practiced by monks in order to build the power and energy neccesary for the long periods of meditation and exercises they performed....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe at Shaolin Temple............................YES!


they also found it helped them retain combative skills when there was no one to combat with.

You are saying there is no benifit to katas then? If they practiced their combative techniques on each other (no safety gear in those days) it would not be long before there would be no one left who could walk.............*note*.....I'm not saying that kata's were all they did to train for fighting, but they did find that performing katas greatly increased their other skills as well.

I tell some of my students who don't spar very well to go back to practicing their forms and take them more seriously. By refining their technique doing forms, they develope better techniques. They always do better in sparring after a while of form practice.
Almost without exception, the better fighters I see are also the top competitors in forms.
 
kungfool:
skorzeny.....yes.....there are paintings on ancient ruins with drawings depicting many of the same techniques that are in what has become taekwondo.....
Click to expand...
Please don't make me laugh. Tae Kwon Do has NOTHING to do with whatever "paintings on ancient ruins" you may have seen anywhere. I really don't think you want to argue about Korean archaeology with me.
It's beginings can be traced back to the three kingdoms period in Korea.
Click to expand...
No. I will mention this just ONCE more. TKD in 1945 was Shotokan Karate, PERIOD! All this, "well, I learned Shotokan, but I really learned secret Tae Kyon from mountain monks whose names I cannot reveal or whose identities cannot be documented or proven - that's where Tae Kwon Do really comes from" routine is really old.
...there is no doubt that martial arts were in Korea over 2000 years ago, albeit not as taekwondo.
Click to expand...
2,000 years, eh? Amazing. Koreans were semi-nomadic tribals at best 2,000 years ago. I didn't know they were inventing empty-hand fighting already.

The only verifiably "native" Korean "martial arts" are archery (Kung Sool or Kung Do in modern form) and wrestling (Ssireum). "Ancient" martial arts were ALL weapon arts, mainly archery, spearwork and swordmanship (archery was also tied to horsemanship, spear and sword to shield work). The notion that ancients or medieval warriors anywhere learned empty-hand fighting is extremely laughable. Modern empty-hand martial arts began with the banning of two swords during the Meiji era in Japan.
Argue till you are blue in the face if you wish, but asian martial arts ALL have roots that predate anyones present knowledge, so it's entirely speculation.
Click to expand...
Indeed, what I engage in is educated, historical speculation based on historical evidence. What you write is post-colonialist Korean nationalist fantasy repeated by poorly informed Korean instructors and their proteges.
You are saying there is no benifit to katas then?
Click to expand...
No. You clearly did not read my earlier posts about what elements make a good "martial art." Katas, hyungs, forms, drills or whatever you choose to call them are necessary, but not sufficient elements of a good martial art.
Almost without exception, the better fighters I see are also the top competitors in forms.
Click to expand...
Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Kali, Jeet Kune Do (etc.) do not hold form competitions, so perhaps your statement applies to TKD and certain Karate schools, but nothing more.

Sorry to be so blunt. But some people need some cold water on their faces before they wake up from their dreams.

Skorzeny
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top