Which of these powders occupy the most space...

FoghornLeghorn

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...in a handgun cartridge?

Vihtavuori 3N37, Winchester 231 or Hodgdon Titegroup?

Which of the above will take up the most space in a case?
 
I'll be happy to run some numbers in Quickload to get the fill percentage on the maximum recommended charge from the powder manufacturer when I get a few minutes this afternoon but will need the bullet and cartridge you plan on using


edit- Just ran some theoretical loads calculated to Pmax on 9mm and it looks like the VV would be almost 90%, then the Win 231 @ 69% fill, followed by the Tightgroup. @ 51%
 
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Going by bulk density, 231 is the bulkiest, then Titegroup, and 3N37 is least bulky. But if you go by amount of powder to reach a certain pressure, then 3N37 might fill the case most, because it is so much slower than the other two it would require more grain weight.
Example: 357 mag, Hornady 158 XTP @ 30 kpsi
6.0 gr Titegroup gives 41.4% case fill
6.6 gr W231 gives 47.1% case fill
8.8 gr 3N37 gives 68.8% case fill
 
Note that because these powders don't have the same burn rate, the charge weight will differ in similar performing loads, where those are possible. QuickLOAD has the bulk densities as:

Titegroup, 0.750 grams/cc
3N37, 0.701 grams/cc
231, 0.695 grams/cc

Those are averages and can vary several percent from one lot to the next. So they are all fairly close, with 3N37 and 231 being closest. But since you don't use the same amounts of each for a given bullet to get the same pressure, the information the others already provided is more practical. If you have a specific cartridge and bullet in mind, this can be narrowed down better.
 
Thanks for the responses.

Standard velocity 45 acp (230 gr fmj) and 9mm (124 gr plated).

44 magnum: cases are 44 mag (220 gr plated) but I load 44 special velocities.

357 magnum: cases are 357 (158 gr plated) but I load 38 special velocities.
 
In every case, it is following the relative burn rates of the powders. Titegroup is the fastest and densest, so it achieves peak pressure with the lowest charge weight and produces the least case fill. 231 is the next slower powder and uses a little more charge weight and is less dense, so it fills the case a little better. 3N37 is the slowest and is only slightly more dense than 231, so it uses the most charge and has the best case fill.

The problem with 3N37 is that it is slow enough to throw some unburned powder out of a 5" barrel in the 45 Auto and the 9 mm, so it will likely create the most muzzle flash and recoil. You can get it to burn completely in the Magnum revolvers, but not at Special pressures. So it wastes powder and, despite better case fill, the added muzzle pressure probably won't lead to the best accuracy.

What you want to use for Special pressures and good case fill in the magnum revolver cases is Trail Boss. In the 45 Auto and 9mm Luger, you could use either Titegroup or 231. I use the latter often. The short pistol cases won't be affected much by case fill, and they are short enough to look into and see the height of the powder charge easily.
 
The problem with 3N37 is that it is slow enough to throw some unburned powder out of a 5" barrel in the 45 Auto and the 9 mm, so it will likely create the most muzzle flash and recoil.

Recoil differences between powders is best explained by the principle of conservation of mass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas

When comparing powders, the powder that uses the greater amount of charge weight to push the same bullet to the same speed produces more recoil because the weight of the powder is added to the ejecta, increasing the force exiting the barrel. This occurs even when both powders burn 100%.
 
Yes. I did not attempt to explain completely. For a given muzzle velocity, the fact a powder is slow enough burning to throw unburned powder out is indicative but not causative of higher recoil. The reason it is indicative is a charge that reaches the same velocity as completely burning powders do but expels waste powder obviously has to be loaded with extra powder mass to provide both the burned powder and the waste. As I stated earlier, 3N37 requires the heaviest charge amount the three powders inquired about in the OP to reach his performance levels of interest.

But there's more: A maximum pressure charge of the slower powder doesn't let the pressure in the barrel fall off as much during expansion from bullet travel as a lower-mass maximum pressure charge of fast powder does. As a result, the muzzle pressure is higher for the slow powder when the bullet clears the muzzle. That higher muzzle pressure accelerates the gas out of the barrel with more force than a lower muzzle pressure from a faster powder does, adding to the applied recoil force occurring after the bullet's departure. For some highly overbore rifle cartridges, this "rocket effect" or "after-effect" can be responsible for 60% of the total recoil impulse. The most common muzzle brake designs work by venting the gas mass perpendicular to the bullet's direction. This eliminates a large portion of the rocket effect in the direction of bullet travel by instead having it thrust inward toward the bore line.

SAAMI has long had a paper available to people interested in estimating recoil. There is also a more detailed recoil calculator in the QuickLOAD program that separates both the recoil force sources and includes the force acting on the rifle scope mount on the gun.

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But there's more: A maximum pressure charge of the slower powder doesn't let the pressure in the barrel fall off as much during expansion from bullet travel as a lower-mass maximum pressure charge of fast powder does. As a result, the muzzle pressure is higher for the slow powder when the bullet clears the muzzle. That higher muzzle pressure accelerates the gas out of the barrel with more force than a lower muzzle pressure from a faster powder does, adding to the applied recoil force occurring after the bullet's departure. For some highly overbore rifle cartridges, this "rocket effect" or "after-effect" can be responsible for 60% of the total recoil impulse. The most common muzzle brake designs work by venting the gas mass perpendicular to the bullet's direction. This eliminates a large portion of the rocket effect in the direction of bullet travel by instead having it thrust inward toward the bore line.

A slower powder can push the same bullet to the same speed but produce less peak chamber pressure. Even in this instance the gas pressure at the muzzle can be higher for the slow powder than the fast powder. See Table 3 and Figure 5 at this link: https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/compensators-pressure-gas/99170 That's why competitors shooting compensated pistols (think IPSC, USPSA), select a slow powder. More powder weight means more gas pressure at the muzzle to have a greater downward force to reduce muzzle rise for faster follow-up shots. A lower peak pressure can be especially important in something like 9 Major where pressures with some loads exceed SAAMI specs. A slower powder has lower peak pressure yet provides more gas for the compensator.

Some overbore rounds can have an ever higher percent than 60% of the recoil produced by just the ejecta mass of the propellant. https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/gunpowder-contribution-to-recoil/328788



A recoil calculator available on the web: http://kwk.us/recoil.html
 
An even simpler way to explain it is that to achieve a given velocity or a given peak pressure with a given powder class*, charges get larger as the powders get slower, which means there is more material to make gas. More gas produces more pressure in the combined barrel and chamber volume, and therefore pressure measured at the muzzle is higher.


The SAAMI method of recoil calculation I linked to and the online calculator you linked to use the same approximation method employed by the fellow in the article you linked to. It has limitations as to bullet velocity. This is revealed when the article author claims a 17 Remington can have 89% of its recoil come from rocket effect. In an example from Hodgdon's site, a 15.5-grain bullet over 27.2 grains of StaBall6.5, the bullet energy was almost 17% of the total energy stored in the powder. So even if it didn't lose over half that powder energy to heating up the case and the inside of the rifle barrel, as you normally do, there isn't 89% of the powder energy left to add recoil energy after the bullet gets 17% of it.

Here is where the SAAMI recoil calculation for high-velocity bullets go off track: Notice the method wants you to use either 4000 ft/s of escaping muzzle gas velocity or a multiplier of 1.75 times the bullet velocity to express gas muzzle velocity. If you divide 4000 by 1.75, you get a bullet velocity of 2,286 ft/s. That's a good 30-30 velocity. But it is the only velocity at which those two factors are simultaneously true. Everywhere else, one of them is wrong to some degree. In real life, as the bullet goes faster, the 1.75 number has to shrink because, like pushing a bullet through the air, the faster the expanding gas tries to go, the harder it has to push air out of the way, and this limits its velocity, making the multiplying factor smaller.

In the instance of that Hodgdon 17 Remington load, above, the muzzle velocity is 4857 ft/s is already beyond the 4000 ft/s estimated gas escape velocity for small arms (a good indication you are in a velocity realm not covered by the single-value SAAMI factors). The recoil calculator in QuickLOAD, which takes into account the actual muzzle pressure, the pressure gradient between the chamber and the muzzle, and the acceleration of the gas, puts the rocket effect at just over 50% of recoil for this combination, which is a lot easier to swallow. I got it up to 51% with the Hodgdon load of 27.4 grains of CFE 223 under a 20-grain bullet. But the rest were all lower.


*similar energy content similar per unit weight.
 
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