Which is easier on my guns? .357 Mag 125 grain or 158 grain?

A

aarondhgraham

New member
I only have 4 firearms in .357 Magnum,,,
S&W 686
Colt Trooper Mk-III
Dakota (Uberti?) SAA clone
H&R Handi-Rifle

I never shoot .357 Mags out of the Colt and the Dakota,,,
They are range toys so I use .38 Special with them.

That leaves the 686 and the Handi-Rifle.

I have about 1,000 rounds of semi-jacket round nose in 158 grain,,,
And about the same in jacketed hollow point in 125 grain.

Recently a gentleman at my range told me that I should never use the 125 grain out of the 686,,,
His thoughts is the lighter bullets were very fast and therefore hard on the forcing cone.

His recommendation was to use the 158 grain in the revolver,,,
And only use the 125 grain in the Handi-Rifle.

Is there any truth/merit in his advice?

Aarond

.
 
I had read that about the K-Frame S&W's.

I guess what I'm really asking is not so much gun specific,,,
As it is a question about the two different bullet weights.

Are the 125 grain bullets significantly faster out of the cylinder than the 158 grain bullets?

If they are significantly faster is that necessarily damaging to a revolver?

I have the Handi-Rifle scoped in at 75 yards using the 125 grain bullets,,,
So I'll probably keep using them in that rifle,,,
They vaporize armadillos.

Aarond

.
 
The 686 was specifically developed to allow a large volume of 125 grain Magnum loads to be shot from it without issue. It effectively replaced the Model 19/66 explicitly for this purpose.

It is still fair to say that some 125 grain cartridges can cause more barrel face and forcing cone erosion and will result in a limited amount of flame-cutting on the top strap sooner than some 158 grain cartridges. The reason is primarily due to the 125 grain load typically using more powder. There could be some effect of the shorter, lighter bullet passing the barrel/cylinder gap earlier in the combustion cycle.

A 158 grain XTP bullet can be loaded over 16.7 grains of H110. A 125 grain XTP can be loaded over 22 grains of H110 -- that's 25% more powder.

One way I heard rifle barrel life explained was by the volume of powder shot through it. The proposal was that one could shoot 20-pounds of powder over the life of the barrel. Of course people have different opinions about when a rifle barrel is "shot-out," different disciplines have different requirements, and revolver lifespan is substantially different than that of rifle barrels. But you get the idea that the greater mass of powder you're burning, the more hot gas you're generating to erode the metal.

The type of powder, it's flame temperature, and the mass of the actual loads you're using could be quite different. Three grains of Bullseye is quite a bit different than 18 grains of Lil'Gun.
 
That gentleman was incorrect. I seriously don't know many people who've shot more .357mag ammo than I have. I've had a lot of different guns in this cartridge, and four of them were custom built. I also have three 686 revolvers...well one is actually a 586 which is the blue model and a 686 and a 686+ (seven shot). I have shot thousands and thousands of rounds out of those guns and they've never had a problem. Back in the 60s and 70s you'd hear about some K frames having forcing cone issues and even those weren't common. The L frames have never had a problem in that regard. I will add that I've never found the 125g bullet to shoot as well as the 158g in any gun and I've never understood using them in a strongly built revolver. You really ought to shoot some groups with different bullets and see which one shoots the best out of your guns. I don't think it will be the 125g. Bullet speed isn't an issue anyway, it's flame cutting and gas erosion. A lot of the lighter full power loads are real flame throwers.
 
Neither. A hot 125 grain load will be as hard on 'em as a hot 158 grain load. Cast or jacketed matters, but a 125 grain, jacketed, Max load of H4427(just because it's on top of Hodgdon's list) runs 42,000 CUP. A 158 runs 42,600 CUP.
The firearm makes no difference. Rifle or revolver makes no difference either. Loads are the same, but tested in different barrel lengths.
"...never use the 125 grain out of the 686..." That's nonsense.
 
Recently a gentleman at my range told me that I should never use the 125 grain out of the 686,,,
His thoughts is the lighter bullets were very fast and therefore hard on the forcing cone.
Click to expand...

The gentleman is both right, and wrong.

125s are faster, and do put a bit more "stress" on the forcing cone than 158s. This is due to several factors "hot" powder and volume of same being the major ones, but there are others as well.

This caused problems in the Model 19, due to specific factors in the construction of the model 19. This has long been resolved.

The model 686 was designed long after the Model 19's issues were known, and is different in the critical areas, and so is not an issue shooting 125s, or anything else.

So, he's right about 125s being hotter, but he's wrong about "don't shoot this in that".
 
With the S&W 686 (updated design) and the Handi-Rifle , being a single shot rifle , have no concerns about shooting either load in them .

The 125 Gr. JHP's were a little hard on model 19's but when this was noticed future models were updated to correct this ... the 686 is built to take these loads .

As Troy Landry would say "Choot Em !"
Gary
 
As others have mentioned, the forcing cone issues were pretty much only a concern with the K-Frames.

That said, I've never seen any issues with 125gr bullets loaded to reasonable pressures, and I've shot thousands of rounds of them through my K-Frames. I have seen issues from the old 110gr loadings, but I never saw the point of those anyway.

Long story short: you're not going to hurt an L-Frame.
 
Well thanks Gentlemen.

I shoot those guns so rarely that there probably wouldn't be a chance of damage anyways,,,
I just like to know the real nitty-gritty of a topic.

(that sentence will date me)

The Handi-Rifle is already scoped in for the 125 grain rounds,,,
So it only seems logical that I keep them for the rifle.

So just for that factor alone I think I'll reserve the 158 grain rounds for the handgun.

Thanks again.

Aarond

.
 
The 125 grain was the "Gold Standard" for law enforcement during the age of cowboy pistols.
Click to expand...

Just how do you define "cowboy pistols"??

When you say "cowboy pistol" most of the world thinks of Single Action revolvers, and in their age of law enforcement use the .357 Magnum did not exist, let alone the 125gr load for it.

When I first met my wife to be, she defined handguns in two groups, "Cowboy guns" (all revolvers) and "James Bond guns" (all semi autos).

Since then, she has learned better. ;)
 
I have also loaded and fired thousands of .357 Magnum loads over the years. My best friend liked to load hot loads with 125 gr bullets in his beautiful 6" Model 19. I also liked thel high velocity lightweight bullets and their performance on ground squirrels out of my Ruger Security Six. After a year or so, he was cleaning his Model 19 and noticed the crack in the forcing cone of his prized revolver. Our research indicated that the 125 gr loads increased powder charges and the quickness of the lightweight bullet leaving the chamber allowed more of the extreme pressure and hot gasses to erode and put greater pressure on the forcing cones. I reduced my consumption of the 1500 fps 125 gr loads, and switched over to milder 158 gr loads. Granted, this may be an isolated incident from 40 years ago, but it did influence my load choices over the decades. YMMV, but that was my experience.
 
I will add that I've never found the 125g bullet to shoot as well as the 158g in any gun.
Click to expand...
Yep that's been my experience with a half dozen .357's (all Smiths & Ruger BH's), that I've owned and shot over the years. Also true for my Marlin 1894CS in .357.

Aarond....As to damage from shooting hot 125 gr loads, 2ndtimer's post covers it well. Personally, I shoot a lot of both types (125 & 158), but don't hot-rod them, and have yet to see any wear on my guns, (currently a Ruger FTBH, 2 model 19's, a pair of 66's, and one Smith M60). It's my opinion, you have to shoot one heck of a lot of jacketed 125's backed by near max charges of slow burning powder, to put your guns in jeopardy.

YMMv Rod
 
It is the length of the bullets, not the weight/speed that is the issue there is really not that much difference. Its not like you are shooting pressure/speed levels of a S&W 460.

The 158 lead/copper bullets are long enough to seal the barrel/cylinder gap, the 125/110's are too short and cause excessive top strap cutting. In my experience and steel guns the cutting only goes so far and stops.
 
Our research indicated that the 125 gr loads increased powder charges and the quickness of the lightweight bullet leaving the chamber allowed more of the extreme pressure and hot gasses to erode and put greater pressure on the forcing cones.
Click to expand...

This is essentially true. Compared to the 158gr loads. It is ALSO true compared to the 110gr loads. (we're only talking factory ammo here).

However the hot 125 load was not the sole cause of the problem with S&W M19s. The problem resulted from the combination of that ammo and the Model 19's design. This has been discussed in detail and at length and a TFL search will give you LOTS to read.

In a nutshell, the M19 barrel forcing cone is not the same as other guns. There is a flat spot which makes a portion of the forcing cone thinner than the rest. M19s served well for years in police use when the standard ammo was the 158 load, no unusual issues. Police went to the 125 and at first no issues, but after the police (generally) went to using the hot 125s as both duty and practice ammo the failure rate of M19s went above expected norms, significantly enough to create the whole "125=bad for your gun" thing.

Other .357s, Rugers, Colts, S&W N frames, did not have this problem. Only the M19. And, not all of them, either. It took a specific combination of factors to create the problem, and not every gun that went through that specific combination of factors failed, either..

The issue has long been resolved but the myth persists.
 
As already mentioned the 686 will handle the 125s just fine but I still fire the 158s most often. The muzzle blast with the 125s with magnum powder charges borders on the absurd.

I save the 125s for lighter loads or 38 Special. Or through my 357 Henry. Although my 8 3/8" Model 27 Smith shoots the 125s fairly well with a little less blast compared to the short barrel 357s. Even then I still fire the 158s the most.
 
Personal Opinion: I had called Smith&Wesson concerning some work on my Model 19. Lady there talked over me explaining no cylinders or barrels. That convinced me that the 19 can be used as a 357 but prudence would be to shoot 38 Special rounds most of the time. I have both a Model 19 and a 586. It does not take the rocket scientist making a comparison , K and L frame, to see what Smith did get a full time 357. Just a personal opinion about my guns. My gun is a 19-5 and would be hard to replace. It works very well.
 
During the early 1990's the US Border Patrol was still using 357 magnums. While my issue was a 686, we still had a lot of 1960's vintage model 19's with untold thousands of 357's fire with no problems. Sure they can break, but it is not as common as the internet would make it seem.
 
It does not take the rocket scientist making a comparison , K and L frame, to see what Smith did get a full time 357.
Click to expand...

Smith had a "full time" .357 before the M 19. It was originally known as the Registered Magnum. Created in 1935 on the heavy "44 frame" later known as the "N" frame. When S&W introduced model numbers it became the Model 27. Later a "lower cost" version was made for police use, named the Highway Patrolman, the Model 28.

The Model 19 was S&W's response to requests by Bill Jordan and others, for a lighter gun, one easier to wear all day, that could still handle .357 loads for duty use but was intended that most of its practice would use .38 Specials.

And basically, that's what S&W delivered. An upgraded .38 Special that could handle a limited amount of .357 shooting without trouble. When these guns were used as "full time .357s" they held up fairly well, until they became "full time .357s shooting hot 125s" and then some held up surprisingly well, some failed.

The L frame guns, designed after many years of seeing what was good and what wasn't in K frame .357s do not have the limitations prudent to use in model 19s.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top