Which Enfield do I want?

E

ehenz

New member
Hi All,

I need a little help here...

I am looking into getting an Enfield as a "project gun". I am having difficulty figuring out all of the codes (No.4 MK 1 ect.)and how they would apply to reliability and accuracy.

I have done searches on this subject, and have recently found info on what each code means, however, I'm not sure which would be the right choice for the project.

I only plan to do some plinking, and would need it chambered in .308 as I already have plenty of surplus ammo.

In short, which enfield is the least likely to give me trouble, and be the most accurate, and not cost over 150 bucks??

Thanks in advance as I appreciate your help,

Ehenz

BTW, my idea of a "project gun" is a good cleaning of all metal parts, stock refinish/cleaning, and to check the headspace.
 
Well, if you want it in .308, there's only one way to go: the Ishapore Enfields, built by India in the 60's. Those are already chambered for the 308 cartridge, and their receiver is built to survive the associated pressure...
Other model Enfields were chambered in 303BR, which is a low-pressure round, and are just not up to par with modern cartridges in the 45000 CUP area...
 
.308 Enfields

Doubleought---
I really believe the "No. 7 Jungle Carbine" is strictly a commercial endeavor--The No. 1 mark 3 in .308 cut down to approximate ourline of the No. 5 carbine. The No. 5 was always, I THINK, in .303 Brit, but it had the No. 4-style aperture peep sight on the receiver bridge.

ehenz---
If the .308 chambering is important to you, you'll probably be stuck with the open sight, forward of the action, unless you just find a No 4 or No 5 which has been specially converted. And then I would always worry about the strength of the conversion unless it could be shown to be a proper arsenal conversion.

The open sights may not be a problem for you. My old eyes NEED that peep sight.

DISCLAIMER--While I've owned several SMLEs, I am far from an expert and have no reference material handy. Suggest you go over to the TFL forum, Harley Nolen's Institute for Firearms Research, and pose the question. I know there are at least a couple of people there who are VERY knowledgeable on this subject.

Best of luck
Johnny
COME AND TAKE 'EM!
 
The Number 7 is an ersatz jungle carbine created by Val Forgett's Gibbs Rifle Co/Navy Arms based on the Indian Ishapore Enfields. There are those in the Lee-Enfield community who wish Val Forgett would never have been born because of these "abominations". They basically took No1MkIII Ishapores already chambered in .308, and chopped them down to the approximate dimensions of the real No5Mk1 Jungle Carbine, then go to great pains to NOT advertise the fact they are reproductions, and non-original. As stated, it uses No1MkIII pieces, to include the forward barrel-mounted tangent sight, as compared to the receiver-mounted peep sight of the No4 and No5 Lee-Enfields.

The No5Mk1 Jungle Carbine is chambered in .303 British, and while it's true it doesn't operate at the same pressures as the .308 Winchester, the little rifle does pack a whallop, pushing the standard 174gr military load only marginally slower than it's longer barreled No1MkIII and No4Mk1 and No4Mk2 cousins. I would NEVER call it not "up to par" with the .308 Winchester, it took a couple world wars for folks to come up with the shorter round and duplicate the lower pressure ballistics of the .303 (and .30-06).

There are gunsmiths who will rebarrel a No4 action to accept .308 Winchester, and the barrels (specifically L39, etc) are still out there to be had. Some extractor tweaking is necessary for the rimless round, but it's an entirely satisfactory conversion. I'd recommend staying with the later and stronger WW2 era No4 actions if you wish to rebarrel to .308. Otherwise, simply find yourself one of the Indian Ishapore No1MkIII rifles, their metallurgy was specifically intended to handle .308 pressures. Not only that, but among the Lee-Enfield purists, the Ishapore is considered the red-headed step child of the clan, and as such is usually cheaper to purchase.

And, yes, I would never have thought the cheap old British Lee-Enfield would start to appreciate in value, but it's true. Nice examples of WW1 No1MkIIIs, made by BSA, Enfield, Fazakerly, Maltby, and WWII No1MkIII Australian Lithgows, as well as WWII No4Mk1s, (made by such folks as the British companies, as well as Savage in the USA and Long Branch in Canada), No4Mk1/2s, No4Mk2's, and No5Mk1's are all getting relatively scarce.

I own a 1917 Enfield-mfg No1MkIII*, a 1943 Australian Lithgow No1MkIII*, a 1942 Canadian Long Branch No4Mk1*, and a 1945 BSA-mfg No5Mk1 Jungle Carbine.

While not too aesthetically pretty, they are all fast-handling, and excellent shooters.
 
Thanks for the clarification guys. My memory obviously sux. I'm aware of Gibbs Rifle Co., but didn't know it was an Ishapore re-work. I've only owned one Enfield and that was an Ishapore. VERY sploppy chamber. Otherwise, a great rifle.

On another note, a friend and I are cleaning up a NO. 5 MK 1 he rescued from an old farm house. Finish is about 95%. Had just a little rust around the flash hider. The bore was not so lucky. Markings on receiver:

NO 5 MK 1 ROF (F)
12/45 T5201

The rifle did not have a stock. All other parts are there. No pitting on bolt face. Extractor looks new and original. Some, but not much, wear on bolt and raceway. The finish is that lovely Brit black paint. Tough stuff!

Anyone have any thoughts or comments on this one.
?
 
Fazakerly manufactured, obviously December of 1945. Some were still being made as late as 1948.

Don't write off that gun because of the bore, yet. Can you still make out the rifling? If so, some time with JB Bore Paste, a tight brush, and tons of patches may clean it up quite well. Cordite .303 was especially nasty corrosive stuff, though.

Springfield Sporters has your stock, as well as replacement parts to include the rubber recoil pad.

My wife calls my BSA Shirley No5Mk1 the Elmer Fudd gun, because of the cone flash hider. She thinks it's the perfect gun for me to use in high-power matches because other shooters jump from the muzzle blast and concussion.
 
Thanks for the info so far.

Gewehr98 and friends,

Nice lesson and great info!

a few more follow-up questions if you would please...

A gather that only a few "updated versions" of this aparently fine rifle are offered in .308...and these rifles only offer open sights?

I guess I am starting to re-think the .308/.303 thing. Surplus .303 is still not at a bad price.

Do the 303. models have the "peep sight". I am assuming they are more like U.S. sights as you would find on the Garand, 14, 16, carbine?

...and for the last question, which model should I just stay clear of?

Thanks again for your generous replies!!!

Ehenz
 
ehenz:
I would be inclined to buy an 'original' Lee-Enfield chambered in .303 British. If it's in nice condition, it'll probably outshoot an Ishapore .308 anyway...although I've met a few folks who swear by them..and others that swear AT them. :)
I don't know what these rifles are going for in the States, but you can buy a nice post WW2 British manufactured No4Mk2 for under $200 Canadain; that's about US$130. The No4Mk2 is somewhat superior to the No4Mk1* because the trigger is pinned directly to the receiver, and, quite simply, it's newer. Fabulous shooters, too.
Don't pass up on either a Savage (American) or Longbranch (Canadian) No4Mk1* either...they are much better quality than the British manufactured rifles of WW2. It's a lot easier to build rifles properly when bombs aren't falling on your head.
 
Thanks for the info Gewehr98. Your suggestion is exactly what we're doing with the bore. It's rough about 3/4 of the way up the bore from the chamber, but getting better all the time. My personal record so far is 1200 brushes through an L1A1 barrel before I got all the copper out. I know, I know, I'm a sick man!
 
Sorry Gewehr, I never meant 303BR performance was not up to par with modern cartridge performance, au contraire, but with the operating pressures associated with 308. I myself am a big fan of the old rimmed cartridge.....
And yes Mike, I've been tortured lately by an ad by SIR in Winnipeg selling No4 MkII Enfields for 199.99$ CDN complete with bayonet and scabbard. Truly superior shooters. Thousands of canadian deer, moose and bears have fallen to the old rimmed one since the 50's...
Those Enfields are known by game wardens in Quebec as "poacher guns" since they do the job right and cost next to nothing if they get seized...
 
Don't count out the Gibbs Rifles

I am an Enfield addict so here's my .02.

If you are looking for something to modify/sporterize then by all means take a look a the rifles sold by Gibbs. They are nicely done, well put together rifles that are reasonably priced. Personally, I'd like one of their "Tanker" carbines. As long as you are not looking for something collectable these are great rifles.

Check your local gun stores and shows also. I recently bought a #4 Mk1/2 for $25. The original stock had been hideously sporterized, the barrel was chopped to 20" and looked like it had mushrooms growing in it and the sights were missing. The action and the magazine were in perfect condition so I snapped it up. The barrel is cleaning up very nicely and should only need to be recrowned. With some help from Springfield Sporters and about $50 I intend to turn this into something similar to Gibbs Quest Extreme carbine. The point is that there are deals out ther if you look for them. This rifle was sitting in a corner behind the counter. He just wanted it out of the way.
I also have a very nice, original #5 Mk1 and a #4 Mk1. They are great shooters just as they are.
If you are looking for more radical sporterizing ideas go to http://www.303british.com and look at the article about saving a burnt out Jungle Carbine. That is my scout rifle and I wouldn't trade it for the world!
The 303 is a fine cartridge and can do anything a 308 can do. If I had to choose between an Ishapore in 308 and a #4 in 303 I'll take the #4 every time. The #4 has VASTLY superior sights.
 
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