Which .308 Battle Rifle?

N

Nightcrawler

New member
Let's say we've got a few thousand dollars to blow, but it can only be spent on one rifle and accessories for it. Let's also say we want a .308 semiauto battle rifle.

Which rifle and variant would you get, and why?

-Armalite AR-10
-DS Arms SA58 FAL
-Springfield M1A
-Heckler & Koch HK91 (and clones)
-Spanish CETME
-Robinson Armament VEPR II or Super VEPR
-Something Else

Just curious. I've been contemplating saving up for a battle rifle. Probably get a FAL. I might get the M14 or AR-10, but both of those have overly expensive standard capacity magazines and I'm certainly not going to hold my breath on the magazine capacity ban ending in 2004. I REALLY like the Super VEPR, but I have to do look deep inside myself and see if my heart will settle for 10 round magazines...:D
 
M14/M1A

It's the most accuate, and there's more knowledge floating around out there than on any of the others. Parts too.

My vote for (distant) second would be the HK.


Yr. Obt. Svnt.
 
The FAL. Reliable, accurate enough for a battle rifle, simple to work on, parts and magazines are dirt cheap.

A note on accuracy - The FAL can be made extremely accurate if you're willing to dump enough money into it. Think along the lines of a match-grade heavy barrel, float tube, DSA scope mount, trigger job, set back the barrel, and tighten the headspace. But right out of the box, you can expect to hit a man-sized target out to 400-500 yards, shooting from prone. Assuming that you are a capable shooter, of course.

Second choice would be the M1A. Great rifles, also accurate and reliable, but parts and magazines are more expensive, and they don't handle quite as well (personal opinion.)

I'd avoid the G3/CETME variants. Too many moving parts, too fragile.

The AR10? Well, I don't much like the AR operating system, but if I wanted a real "precision" rifle, that's the one I'd pick. Magazines are EXPENSIVE, though.

Never fired a VEPR. They look cool, though.

Get the FAL.

Later,
Chris
 
I have an Armalite AR10, M1A, and a FAL built with like new STG-58 parts and the required DSArms US-made parts on an Imbel receiver. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Of the three, I prefer the M1A, then the AR10, and finally the much over-rated FAL.

The M1A has an outstanding trigger and excellent sites. It balances very well and is very accurate. It's also quite reliable. Magazines are getting a bit pricey ($50), and take down is a bit complicated. You do have to clean the bore from the muzzle end.

I like the ergonomics of the AR10, but it is just a bit too muzzle heavy for my taste. The bolt hold-open device is a finger-nail buster (you have to hold a button in on the magazine follower while loading the second round). One of my magazines is a bit too tight in the magazine well. The magazines don't feel like they lock securely into the gun. It is quite accurate and has been reliable for me. The trigger (Armalite's NM 2-stage trigger) is excellent, and so are the sights. The magazines are expensive, as they are a conversion of the already expensive M14 mags. Take down is easy, like an AR15. Of course, with the gas system discharging into the receiver, you do have to clean it more.

A lot of folks will say that the FAL is the best semi-auto rifle. I simply don't agree. The sights are poor. The trigger is poor and there are not many gunsmiths around who know how to improve a FAL trigger. The receiver is overly long, putting the handguard way, way out there. My arms aren't exactly short (32" sleeve), but I find that the FAL feels like an oar when shooting off hand. In terms of reliability, better make sure you don't open up that gas port too much. If you do, then the case won't eject fully and instead get stuck between the bolt carrier and dust cover. Now you've got a really, really hard jam to clear, as I've learned from personal experience. Magazines are cheap. Take down is easy as long as you haven't put a scope on it, in which case you can't remove the dust cover. My FAL is reasonably accurate.

My choice is the M1A. It just works better for me. YMMV.

M1911
 
If it was me I would get a Springfield Armory M1A. Hard to improve on what M1911 said. If you go with a FAL also check out Arizona Expertarms http://www.azexarms.com

If you haven't try to test fire each of the rifles you list before settling on a choice.
 
I'd go with the FAL for all the reasons stated by Chris.

Trigger easy to slick up if needed.

Use the left over bucks for lots of ammo and practice.

I love the Garand family but think the FAL is more useful.

Sam
 
If money is no object, HK91 hands down. Accurate as they get and all the Black Rifle benes.

On a budget, DSA SA58. Sights suck but they are solid <1.5MOA shooters and mags are CHEAP.

M1A and AR10 is in the middle.

HK91 fragile? Your joking, right?
 
The Beretta BM59/62 is compact,accurate,reliable and easy to maintain. The trigger is right out of the M1. Stocks are walnut and magazines are nearly indestructible. A good M62 can be had for 1600 or so, and it is the model I prefer. Think of these rifles as compact, 20 round mag M1s. Many small parts interchange with the M1.Rob
 
I own a Belgian FAL, HK91 and an M1A and I have owned an AR10, so I have some experience with the rifles mentioned.
My personal preference would be the DSA FAL: it's durable, reliable, simple to field strip and clean and spare parts and magazines are fairly inexpensive.
Second choice would be the HK91, a very durable and reliable gun. It is more complicated to field strip, heavier and the mags cost more (in the $20-40 range depending on who made the mag, HK or a contract country).
The AR10 is an extremely accurate rifle and I still may get another one, but the mags are very expensive as are spare parts. On the plus side, most of the accessories that work for the AR15 work on the AR10.
 
What's Accurate?

I keep seeing how accurate the HK & FAL are. What do you mean? I can keep my M14 in the black with NM iron sights, @ 1,000 yds (Ya, I know, that ain't no trick!) and I have shot with people who could hit you in the head, first time, every time @ 1,000 yds with an M14. I have NEVER seen either an HK or a FAL that was competative. Why not? Therefore, What is "Accurate?"

Yr. Obt. Svnt.
 
Say I decided to save for about five months...

...so I could afford an M1A. Where do I get GI mags for it? I shudder, I mean, SHUDDER at the thought of spending $50 for a little piece of steel, but you gotta do whatcha gotta do, as my dad used to say. (Assuming I purchased an M1A, which is a BIG if at this point.
 
Average DSA FAL is as accurate as the average M1A, about 1.5-2MOA. A pro "kit", or original milsurp FAL will average, in my experience, around 3MOA and the "beater" Century FALs around 3-4MOA. The M1A can be made to be much more accurate than the FAL for the money, the FALs primary issue is the sights being on two different receivers and generally just crappy. The HK91 (NOT a G3 clone, a REAL German HK91) will shoot MOA or better.
 
A few comments...

"I keep seeing how accurate the HK & FAL are. What do you mean?"

I've shot a FAL with a stock Austrian barrel, custom float tube, and trigger job, that would group MOA with Federal GM Match ammo. With a premium heavy barrel, I'm sure it could go 3/4 or even 1/2MOA.

"...I have shot with people who could hit you in the head, first time, every time @ 1,000 yds with an M14."

Really? That's shooting consistent 4-6" groups at a thousand yards. Pretty impressive, but also pretty hard to believe. I doubt that there are more than a thousand people in the world who can shoot groups that tight, with an M14, at a thousand yards.

"The HK91 (NOT a G3 clone, a REAL German HK91) will shoot MOA or better."

If I remember correctly, the accuracy spec for a Heckler and Koch PSG-1 is 12cm groups at 300m (or 4.72" at 328 yards.) That's about 1.5 MOA. I've never seen an HK-91 group anywhere close to MOA.

I would submit that, due to the lack of issues with bedding, availability of float tubes, and generally solid construction, that a FAL can be made more accurate than an M1A IF you're willing to throw enough money at it. Whether you want to do that depends entirely on what kind of shooting you want to do (and the size of your wallet! :D)

Later,
Chris
 
My .02, HKs are plenty accurate and built like tanks

My SR9T will put 10 rounds in an inch at 100, and I've hit smaller than torso targets at 800. Still looking for a 1000 yard range that doesn't require an airplane ride.

Is it a battle rifle, not really, I call it my precision rifle. But it is VERY accurate, very consistant, and not at all "fragile."

Would I rather carry it (or a 91) around rather than something lighter? Not really. I've humped an M14 in field excercises, too. .308s, at least the ones I've carried, are very heavy, so that might be a consideration.

I just got into FALS, there are parts EVERYWHERE, mags are cheaper than mags for my 1911, and there is not that sense I get with my HK that I need to pamper it because I'll never be able to get another. It is also a simple, robust and effective weapon.

If I were buying a shooter, I'd get a FAL, and I did.
 
M1A mags

The cheapest mail order place I know of is cole's distributing (http://www.cole-distributing.com/specials.html), where you can get a "Very Good to Excellent" magazine for $31.95. From my experience with the magazines I've bought from them, this is a conservative rating.

I've found great deals on used magazines for $25 at gunshows on occasion.

I like the M1A. The sights are easier to adjust than the FAL and HK91. The ease of field stripping advantage of the FAL, AR10, and HK91 is moot since I only field strip once or twice a year as all the normal cleaning I do can be done without disassembling the weapon. I can shoot in the NRA hi-power service rifle division with the M1A and nothing teaches long range marksmanship like practice.

The gripes I have about the M1A are that the beddings seem to last only half the life of a good match barrel (only of concern if you want a really accurate rifle), and that I have problems getting a good cheek weld on my scoped M1A.
 
Christopher

I don't how many there are, world wide, who can do it, but there certainly were a goodly number of them who could do it on the Marine Corps Rifle Team (And in the Army MTU too, when they used M14s.) that compeated in tournaments in which I participated. If you want to stick your head up over the berm @ 1,000 yds, and let them take a crack at it, you may, but I don't think that I'd take the dare.

I will repeat, If HKs and FALs are so accurate, why have I never seen one put it on the line when the rubber meets the road?


Yr. Obt. Svnt.
 
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