Which 3" 1911 for home defense and carry

C

chaim

New member
I have decided to go back to SA 1911 type guns for defensive uses: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587271

It will be more of a transition back. I need to seriously train to work the safety from the draw again until I am comfortable that it is second nature to disengage the safety every time I draw. I figure it may be a few weeks, a month or two, or even 6mo-1yr, I don't really know. In the meantime, I'll continue to use those guns that will continue to be in my carry/HD "rotation"/selection anyway, while I will "retire" those that I won't be using anymore under my new gun selection. So, I do have one 1911 that already fits that role (my old style S&W 1911SC, the original SC that is more like the old 1911PD than the current 1911SC), but I want other 1911 style guns to fill the carry role as well and I think a 3" will be first.

Criteria:
  • It is for carry and possibly occasional home defense so obviously it has to be reliable (I know this can be a problem with 3" 1911s)
  • Caliber: I'm good with 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP. For a 5" 1911 it has to be either .45 or 10mm, but for the smaller 1911s I'm fine with any major caliber. In fact, I'd almost prefer an alternative to .45ACP. First, .45ACP is already a low velocity round and out of a short barrel they have historically had difficulty with either penetration or expansion (and some brands may have had trouble with both). Now, I'm open to .45 because with modern hollow point advancements, the same ones that make 9mm such a good chambering today, I suspect that this is an issue of the past (with good ammo choices). Though, in 9mm or .40 a small 1911 can hold more ammo, an important consideration in a platform that is somewhat limited in capacity even in the full sized models.
  • Price: I'm a teacher so I don't have a large budget to begin with. Further, for a defensive gun, I don't like to go too expensive. Any gun used in self-defense may be confiscated by authorities and it may or may not come back to you, and if it does, it may or may not be in serviceable condition. Further, guns used for CCW may get pretty banged up so I'd prefer it to be something a little less expensive so it wouldn't bother me.
  • Controls: I would prefer it not to have ambidextrous controls since it will be a strong side CCW weapon in order to minimize thickness, but it definitely isn't a deal breaker since ambi controls won't really add much to make concealment difficult.

The Guns:
  • Rock Island Armory GI Series:
    They are inexpensive guns, but have a good reputation for reliability. I like that they are made by Armscor since I had a Charles Daly, also made by Armscor, which was a terrific gun (I sold it, but shouldn't have, with well over 10K rounds through it). They have a 3 1/2" barrel so .45ACP may be a little more likely to gain enough velocity for proper expansion and penetration. However, the rather basic sights could be an issue in a modern defensive gun and they can't be changed out without major smithing (which would negate the cost advantage if I was to try to change them).
  • Rock Island Armory Rock or TAC Series:
    Better sights, replaceable sights (so I could add night sights if I wished), still a 3.5" barrel, and still a reasonable price (sub-$500 for the Rock online, a tad over $500 with the TAC, before FFL fees).
  • Citadel Compact/Officer:
    Also an Armscor brand, imported in this case by Howa/Legacy. From what I understand, they are built with the same features as the discontinued Charles Daly line. All seem to have better sights than the RIA GI series (and removable/replaceable sights). They also have the 3.5" barrel. They run a little more than a RIA, in the mid-$500 range online (before FFL fees) which is still reasonable.
  • Colt Defender:
    These are alloy framed Officer sized guns so they are significantly lighter than the steel framed guns, a near perfect (for CCW) 24oz. From a lot of what I've read over the years, it seems that a Colt is the most likely to be reliable when going down to a 3" 1911. I've long said that if I get a 3" 1911 it will be a Defender (and eventually I probably will), but it is on the expensive side for me (depending upon which sight option, in the $800-900 range online before FFL fees). Though, it is a little less than most of the other major brand options.
  • Springfield Armory EMP:
    A good size, a little smaller than most true 1911s, but bigger than a micro-1911. The capacity is good for a small 1911 (8+1 in .40, 9+1 in 9mm). It is alloy, but 27oz. I'd probably go .40S&W in this option. I've been interested in the EMP (both 9mm and .40) since they first came out. However, they are expensive.
  • SIG Ultra:
    Still a little expensive, but a bit better than the EMP, and SIG seems to put night sights on nearly all of them. It is a 28oz alloy 1911. I like my SIGs, and would have high expectations of this gun.
  • Kimber Ultra Carry or CDP Ultra:
    A bit of a wild card, I know from reading that they don't seem to be what they used to be, but they are beautiful guns (some of the best looking IMO), and a buddy used to have a Kimber (Target I believe) II which was a good gun. Are they really the gamble some online seem to portray them to be? I would prefer a used 1st gen if I could find it, but I would highly consider the Ultra II or CDP Ultra II. It is a 25oz gun, so pretty light and about perfect for IWB CCW. Again though, they are a bit on the expensive side for me. The Ultra isn't terrible (though I'd like to be $100-200 less), but the CDP is up there with my more expensive options.
 
I carry a Colt Defender in an IWB Versa Max II. Great handgun and one that works very well for me. You can't go wrong with this model.

One 3" 1911 missing from your list would be a S&W 1911 Pro. Have one of these as well that is just as good as the Colt. Both are good choices.

Also, one thing I hate to see when people are talking about their CCW is looking for a low cost option. This is a gun that will protect you and your family. While I get price is always a factor, it shouldn't be the top factor when looking at something that could save your life.
 
This has come up in a few posts recently but I would pick the citadel. I'm a big legacy sports fan. I bought one of their pointer shotguns and it has been fantastic. It could use a citadel pistol and howa rifle in the safe with it :)
 
chaim said:
]Colt Defender:
These are alloy framed Officer sized guns so they are significantly lighter than the steel framed guns, a near perfect (for CCW) 24oz. From a lot of what I've read over the years, it seems that a Colt is the most likely to be reliable when going down to a 3" 1911. I've long said that if I get a 3" 1911 it will be a Defender (and eventually I probably will), but it is on the expensive side for me (depending upon which sight option, in the $800-900 range online before FFL fees). Though, it is a little less than most of the other major brand options.
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Not Officers-size. "Officers-size" in the 1911 universe rfers to the Colt Officers ACP, which had a 3-1/2" barrel. The Defender has a 3" barrel and is thus a sub-Officers-size. This would be my choice if you really want a 3" pistol rather than a 3-1/2".

Springfield Armory EMP:
A good size, a little smaller than most true 1911s, but bigger than a micro-1911. The capacity is good for a small 1911 (8+1 in .40, 9+1 in 9mm). It is alloy, but 27oz. I'd probably go .40S&W in this option. I've been interested in the EMP (both 9mm and .40) since they first came out. However, they are expensive.
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The EMP is thr smallest 1911 available. If you're thinking of guns like the Kimber Micro 380, Colt Mustang, and SIG P238, they are smaller than the EMP but they aren't 1911s. You're right -- the EMP is expensive. Keep in mind that they got small by shortening the frame. There are 17 parts in the EMP that are NOT standard 1911, so you can't just open up Brownells' catalog and buy a bunch of parts if you decide to tune it up yourself. Springfield is the only source.
 
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First choice for me from that list would be the EMP in 9mm. I know you prefer .40 SW but you can get practically the same performance from a good 9mm load and with less recoil. Small enough to easily carry concealed but large enough to be able to shoot fairly well. The EMP was designed for the shorter length 9mm and .40 SW cartridges so you are less likely to have reliability issues.

Second choice would be a Colt Defender. I have no third choice.
 
Have a Colt defender 100 anniversary model that has been finicky from the get go, but have a New Agent (discontinued line) in 9mm that has been great. Also the Kimber Ultra CDP has been stellar. It's bi-tone and it's purdy:D
 
I have a Kimber Ultra CDP II in .45ACP and a 9mm Springfield EMP. They have been very reliable to the point that I have carried both and I trust either to function properly.
 
Colt Defender:
These are alloy framed Officer sized guns so they are significantly lighter than the steel framed guns, a near perfect (for CCW) 24oz. From a lot of what I've read over the years, it seems that a Colt is the most likely to be reliable when going down to a 3" 1911. I've long said that if I get a 3" 1911 it will be a Defender (and eventually I probably will), but it is on the expensive side for me (depending upon which sight option, in the $800-900 range online before FFL fees). Though, it is a little less than most of the other major brand options.
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While this would not be my particular choice (I like steel framed 1911s) your comments answer the question for itself. The Colt will, initially, lose some value if you buy it new but not a tremendous amount. This is probably true for your other expensive options as well. Ultimately it is a Colt 1911 and will retain most of its value over time.

While the Rock Island has a pretty outstanding reputation from what I have heard they still go down in value. What good is the gun in your safe or the one you sell at a loss?

Pony up the $800 or $900 now and buy the gun you are going to eventually buy anyways. Be happy with the purchase and not having to go back in your mind and wish you had only to later to sell the more economical version at a loss which only pushes up the final cost of getting what you wanted anyways.

See if I can illustrate:
Buy the Defender now - cost $1,000.

By something cheaper now and sell it at a $200 loss to buy the same $1,000 Defender later - final cost $1,200 (plus break in ammo, any accessories you bought, holsters, etc).

Making sound economical decisions does not always mean buying the cheapest thing that will get you buy unless you will be ultimately satisfied with said purchase and not pursue what you wanted in the first place later.
 
While the Rock Island has a pretty outstanding reputation from what I have heard they still go down in value. What good is the gun in your safe or the one you sell at a loss?

Pony up the $800 or $900 now and buy the gun you are going to eventually buy anyways. Be happy with the purchase and not having to go back in your mind and wish you had only to later to sell the more economical version at a loss which only pushes up the final cost of getting what you wanted anyways.
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Ah, but if I get the Citadel or RIA now, I probably won't sell when/if I get the Defender. They really are different animals. The RIA/Citadel are steel framed beasts, while the Defender is alloy. The RIA/Citadel have 3 1/2" barrels, the Defender is a 3". So, if I get one of the others (except the EMP which is in a class of its own between the regular 3" 1911s and the micro-1911s in size), when I get a Defender, I will end up selling whichever I like less, while the RIA/Citadel is different enough that there will probably be a place in my collection for both.
 
You know you better then I know you. That being said if you buy the defender would you still want the RIA / Citadel model or would you simply move forward?
 
Here is where I currently stand:

I have pretty much dropped the GI series from consideration. I love the price, but the sights just don't cut it for a modern defensive gun (I know people made due with them for decades, but there are so many better choices now), and being part of the slide they'd be quite expensive to have a smith work on them to change them out.

I'm slightly leaning towards a RIA M1911 CS FDE. It has Novak sights (good sights in and of themselves, and easy to change out for night sights should I desire), right handed controls (a tad thinner than ambi), and it is on Buds for $450 so it is cheaper than the TAC (by $35) or TAC II (by $113). The FDE is on the light side, from pics on Buds and Gunbroker I'd say it is more sand than FDE. I don't love the color, but it is OK and CeraKote is pretty durable which is good.

I'll probably drop the Citadel from my lineup since they are about 10% more than a comparable RIA.

As much as I'd love an EMP, it is probably out due to price (even if I go expensive, I'd rather save a little and go more Defender, Kimber Ultra or SIG prices), but price independent it would probably be #1 (got to love the size, and extra round or two). So, my 2nd and 3rd choices are probably the Colt Defender (price independent it would be just a hair under the EMP), and Kimber Ultra (they are probably the best looking guns on the market, if the reliability and overall quality was what they once were it would probably be #1). The SIG and S&W in a 3" gun are a bit more distant down the list, but depending upon what I see at the gun shops, and upcoming gun show, anything can happen.
 
You know you better then I know you. That being said if you buy the defender would you still want the RIA / Citadel model or would you simply move forward?
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If I got the Defender and it proved reliable, I'd definitely want to add others (either the RIA/Citadel or a different steel framed 3-3 1/2" 1911, and definitely an EMP). Would I actually do it, I'm not sure. There are a lot of other guns on my list that I've put off for one purchase or another that might come first (a 3" S&W 686 Plus, a revolver caliber lever carbine, I've been without a bolt rifle for a while, a SA revolver, a SIG 229, a 10mm, etc.). Some of those have been on my list, but put off for one purchase or another for over a decade, so a 2nd 3-3.5" 1911 might take a while too (actually, an initial 3" 1911 has been on that list off and on for nearly 15 years).
 
Lohman446, your points are a good reason to drop the Kimber. That particular Kimber is the most direct competition to the Defender out of the guns I'm considering. The SIG and RIA are steel framed and heavier. The EMP is smaller yet heavier. The Kimber is a 3", alloy, 25oz 1911. The Defender is a 3", alloy, 24oz 1911. The others are different enough, that at least in theory, I can see having both. The Defender and Kimber are two versions of the same thing and having both makes little sense. So, the Kimber is definitely out.

Similarly, I think I'll drop the SIG since it and the RIA are the most direct competition (even the barrel length: 3.5" for the RIA, 3.3" for the SIG). I'd actually rather have the RIA. I've wanted to try a RIA since they first came out and just never really got around to it. That, plus it is $200-300 less and the RIA makes more sense.

So, modify my previous post a few minutes ago to:

1) RIA M1911 CS FDE, Rock or TAC
2) (close) Colt Defender


The EMP is probably out due to cost, but I can't quite drop it since in all other ways, it would be my 1st choice. Unfortunately, the bottom line on the EMP is that going over $1K on a carry gun, on a teacher's salary, may just not be feasible. Sure, it may be only $100-200 over what the other (big name) options would cost, but those are already at the very top of the range I can realistically consider.
 
Some of those have been on my list, but put off for one purchase or another for over a decade, so a 2nd 3-3.5" 1911 might take a while too
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Oh I have that list. A Ruger No1, a Ruger Red Label, a Colt Combat Commander 9MM.

The Rugers have been on that list for decades and been passed up repeatedly.
 
You do realize that the Colt Defender is available in 9mm, right? Same round count as the EMP -- the EMP doesn't have a longer grip frame.

http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Pistols/Defender-Series

If you really want small, in a true 1911, and light, look for a used Para-Ordnance Slim Hawg. It's even smaller than the EMP, overall.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Firearms/BI.aspx?Keywords=Para+Slim+Hawg&Sort=13

http://ezine.m1911.org/POslimhawg.htm

This review of the EMP compares the dimensions of the EMP, Defender, and Slim Hawg. (I think they transposed the grip length between the Slim Hawg and the EMP -- I own a Slim Hawg, and I've fired the EMP. The EMP grip is the same length/height as the Defender and the Officers ACP. The Slim Hawg frame is one round shorter in height.)

[Edit to add] I'm wrong. (What a surprise!) I think that EMP review table uses "grip length" to mean the horizontal, fore-to-aft dimension. And that makes sense, because the EMP is essentially a Defender-size pistol with a 1/10" slice taken out vertically up through the magazine well.

If you should decide to look for a Para Slim Hawg, be aware that they were offered in both steel and alloy versions. Those with a smooth front strap should all be alloy. The steel versions (at least, those I've seen) had those horrible "Griptor" grooves in the front strap.
 
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EMP

My choice and daily carry is the EMP in 40. Absolutely love the gun... rock solid with all ammo and is as accurate as they say. It is an incredible firearm. There is almost no recoil and follow-up shots are fast and on target as well, seriously, I can't say enough good about this pistol.

Springfield Armory has a special on right now where you can get an additional four mags, paddle holster and two mag carrier for free… That's a pretty great additional package. Mine before tax was 899 but had been used (barely).

The idea of a pistol been confiscated in case of a shooting would be the farthest worry from my mind. I would want the most accurate and dependable weapon on my person to get me to that point. And if it ever got there, I would instead consider it to be the best money I ever spent.

I've also had a colt defender in .45 and a EMP in 9 previously, but this EMP in 40 is the very best in my opinion. I carry it appendix everyday in a Wright Leather holster and it is easy to carry and disappears even under a tshirt.
 
Reality check: An EMP in .40 S&W is not going to recoil perceptibly less than a Defender in .45 ACP. The recoil pulse will be different, but it will be there. Just as an example -- Hornady XTP self-defense ammo. Muzzle energy in .40 S&W is 479 ft.lbs., in .45 ACP it's 371 ft.lbs, in .45 ACP +P it's 462. Muzzle energy isn't a perfect predictor of perceived recoil, but it's a baseline. The .40 is right up there with the .45 ACP.

For comparison, the same ammo in 9mm is 310 or 339 ft.lbs., which is orders of magnitude less. .380 ACP is 200 ft.lbs.

The EMP and the Defender weigh virtually the same, and both are light compared to an all-steel 1911. The 3" barrel also provides very little mass to help offset muzzle flip. Recoil is subjective, but I don't think most people would say that a short-barrel, alloy-framed 1911 in .40 S&W has "almost no recoil."

Also, as shown by the dimensions in that EMP review I linked to above, for purposes of concealment they are the same. It really comes down to which one you like. Both are available in 9mm, with the same capacity. The EMP is also available in .40 S&W but not in .45 ACP; the Defender is also available in .45 ACP but not in .40 S&W.

Take your pick.
 
http://www.springfield-armory.com/products/1911-emp-40-cal/

A short barrel 40 with an alloy frame would probably be a handful with the numbers you have shown but thankfully both experience and the factory specs tell me that the EMP 40 is a steel frame which does in fact make the pistol feel like there is "almost no recoil" to most people.

I still think this is the best choice but it is again my opinion... and my pick.
 
^^^ Interesting.

So the 9mm is alloy and the .40 is steel. I hadn't realized they were different. That said, I have a steel 1911 in .40 S&W with a 4-1/4" barrel. Recoil is manageable, but not negligible, and I'm quite certain that most people would not say it feels like there is almost no recoil. It's rather "snappy."

Back to the OP (chaim): If it were my choice, I'd go with the Defender in 9mm. It takes all standard 1911 parts, it's light, and it's a Colt.
 
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