Where do you "place the shots"?
- Thread starter BTR
- Start date
com...is a good location although it can have you shooting below the important organs....the bend of the elbows and the nipples as guides are better, although commonsense has to apply if the opponent is large brested use the bend of the elbows..com is one of the reasons penetration is so important, if you shoot center of mass and you miss a vital organ you want penetration in order to disrupt as much as possible and hopefully take out the spinal cord.....fubsy.
David Scott
New member
Heart, Spine, Brain
Dr_Johnson
New member
The areas of the human body that will cause death in less then say a minute are very small. The best suggestion that I could make is to go online or to the library and get a book on human anatomy, find where the heart, brain stem, central nervous system are located in relation to the rest of the body. You will see that center of mass hit may not cause a lethal injury and that an upper headshot may not help someone’s mental abilities, but at the same time may not be fatal. Just like any hunter can tell you were a deer’s heart is located, for self defense it helps to know human anatomy.
3 areas:
An inverted trianglular area with the orbits of the eye sockets on the outside points and the tip of the nose on the lower point. Round in here will get funnelled by the facial bone structure into the brain.
The left atrium (a little above and to the right of COM).
The pelvis as it's a larger target, has several sensitive areas, and damage here can prevent movement.
edges and the nose on the lbetween the eyes and nose triangular
An inverted trianglular area with the orbits of the eye sockets on the outside points and the tip of the nose on the lower point. Round in here will get funnelled by the facial bone structure into the brain.
The left atrium (a little above and to the right of COM).
The pelvis as it's a larger target, has several sensitive areas, and damage here can prevent movement.
edges and the nose on the lbetween the eyes and nose triangular
Gopher .45
New member
Where are you supposed to hit the bad guy? This is a much better question than some are giving credit. COM is the correct answer, even if it may miss some vital organs ... if you actually hit center of mass. The purpose of aiming for COM is that it gives you the most room for error in your shooting, be it due to your excitement, lack of skills, or the fact the bad guy doesn't stand there like a two dimension stationary target for extended periods waiting for you to shoot.
Of course the best place to shoot him would be in the head, particularly in the brain case. These shots are about as close to consistent one-shot stops as you will get. Shooting in the brain is about as tough as a shot as you are going to make, however. The head moves a LOT and makes for a difficult target. The heart is nice and if you shoot high chest, this is a good place to hit. Where is the heart in the chest? How big is the heart? The heart is about as big as a person's fist. The heart is therefore a rather small target, smaller than the brain, in fact. It is also located pretty much in the center of the chest between the nipples, not on the left side of the chest.
Guyon asked if we weren't supposed to just shoot the gun out of the hand. Sure! If we can hit the brain or the heart, we darn well can shoot the gun out of a guy's hand with no problem.
According to an LEO trainer friend, police have a record of only about 22-25% hit ratio on targets, ANYWHERE on targets.
It is good to try to hit the area you want to hit, but keep in mind, that if you aim for the head, there is a good likelihood of missing. If you aim for high chest (heart area) you may shoot over the shoulder if you are not on target. You might get lucky and shoot the head, who knows.
So, shoot COM, which is about at the base of the sternum. If you go high, maybe you get that heart shot, or a lung. If you go a little low, you will definitely get the guy's attention with a gut shot. If you go way low, you might get a good hit shot. You can go left and right as well from COM and get a spleen or kidneys.
As far as stop shots, contrary to what is posted, a spine or hip shots likely will not actually stop the person in terms of being aggressive. Unless the spine shot is above the arms, the guy will still shoot at you, your family, or others around. A spine shot below the arms or a hip shot only takes out the guy's mobility, but this is not a stop shot. A heart shot likely will not be a stop shot either, not immediately. In fact, short of a brain, brain stem, or neck spinal shot that severs, you can't count on any one shot being a "stop" shot where the bad guy is rendered useless. Most gun deaths are from bleeding out, not central nervous system destruction.
What is the best gun for a gun fight? The one you have when it starts. Where is the best place to hit a bad guy? Anyplace is a good place to hit the bad guy. Missing the bad guy is not a good place. COM.
Of course the best place to shoot him would be in the head, particularly in the brain case. These shots are about as close to consistent one-shot stops as you will get. Shooting in the brain is about as tough as a shot as you are going to make, however. The head moves a LOT and makes for a difficult target. The heart is nice and if you shoot high chest, this is a good place to hit. Where is the heart in the chest? How big is the heart? The heart is about as big as a person's fist. The heart is therefore a rather small target, smaller than the brain, in fact. It is also located pretty much in the center of the chest between the nipples, not on the left side of the chest.
Guyon asked if we weren't supposed to just shoot the gun out of the hand. Sure! If we can hit the brain or the heart, we darn well can shoot the gun out of a guy's hand with no problem.
According to an LEO trainer friend, police have a record of only about 22-25% hit ratio on targets, ANYWHERE on targets.
It is good to try to hit the area you want to hit, but keep in mind, that if you aim for the head, there is a good likelihood of missing. If you aim for high chest (heart area) you may shoot over the shoulder if you are not on target. You might get lucky and shoot the head, who knows.
So, shoot COM, which is about at the base of the sternum. If you go high, maybe you get that heart shot, or a lung. If you go a little low, you will definitely get the guy's attention with a gut shot. If you go way low, you might get a good hit shot. You can go left and right as well from COM and get a spleen or kidneys.
As far as stop shots, contrary to what is posted, a spine or hip shots likely will not actually stop the person in terms of being aggressive. Unless the spine shot is above the arms, the guy will still shoot at you, your family, or others around. A spine shot below the arms or a hip shot only takes out the guy's mobility, but this is not a stop shot. A heart shot likely will not be a stop shot either, not immediately. In fact, short of a brain, brain stem, or neck spinal shot that severs, you can't count on any one shot being a "stop" shot where the bad guy is rendered useless. Most gun deaths are from bleeding out, not central nervous system destruction.
What is the best gun for a gun fight? The one you have when it starts. Where is the best place to hit a bad guy? Anyplace is a good place to hit the bad guy. Missing the bad guy is not a good place. COM.
O
olazul
Guest
excellent advice Gopher-
I think whether or not you "stop" your assailant with one shot is absolute luck and more to do with the golbins attitude(adrenalin) than where you put the bullet. Now you can increase your luck somewhat by practice but it is still luck.
As others have mentioned your heart is just the size of your fist. The better bet is the rich vasculature around it- but this is still a relatively small target. Besides, many who are shot in the heart/surrounding vasculature live for several minutes.
The brain on a frontal shot is a really small target. In trauma, any GSW below the pupils is considered a neck shot because the bullet bounces off the dense angled petrous bone of the frontal lobe. You can also take off the surrounding 2 inches off the top and sides of the cranium for skin and the bullet just bounceing off a tangential shot to the skull and not much is left.
The brainstem- well, good luck.
I believe the key is center of mass(this allows for error as Gopher stated- and there will be error) and multiple rounds until the assailant gives up or dies(or both).
regards,
Olazul
[This message has been edited by olazul (edited September 08, 2000).]
I think whether or not you "stop" your assailant with one shot is absolute luck and more to do with the golbins attitude(adrenalin) than where you put the bullet. Now you can increase your luck somewhat by practice but it is still luck.
As others have mentioned your heart is just the size of your fist. The better bet is the rich vasculature around it- but this is still a relatively small target. Besides, many who are shot in the heart/surrounding vasculature live for several minutes.
The brain on a frontal shot is a really small target. In trauma, any GSW below the pupils is considered a neck shot because the bullet bounces off the dense angled petrous bone of the frontal lobe. You can also take off the surrounding 2 inches off the top and sides of the cranium for skin and the bullet just bounceing off a tangential shot to the skull and not much is left.
The brainstem- well, good luck.
I believe the key is center of mass(this allows for error as Gopher stated- and there will be error) and multiple rounds until the assailant gives up or dies(or both).
regards,
Olazul
[This message has been edited by olazul (edited September 08, 2000).]
At the safety course they teach you to aim for the upper torso/chest/stomach area. Also when I was on the FBI tour, at the end, the agent fired some guns(.38 revolver, Glock 22, Tompson .45, MP5 single semi, 3 round burst, and full auto) and he old us that all the agents are taught to shoot for center mass, upper torso. He said all that stuff in the movies, shooting guns out of peoples hands and stuff like that didn’t really go on.
Country Boy
New member
FWIW
Two of the ways I practice most are:
1) two quick shots to the chest (sternum), followed by a more aimed shot at the head. Repeat as necessary.
2) several quick shots to the chest, briefest of pauses to a$$ess, then several more quick shots to the chest.
#1 would be more effective against criminals with body armor. However, before something goes down, we should be aware of our backstop. I do not want to be on a crowded street, attempt a head shot, miss under stress, and have my bullet streak towards Mr. John Q. Public. Also, I would a$$ume that a hip shot would also be effective against criminals with body armor. I practice the Mozambique (sp) under simulated stress, and I don't know how accurate I'll be when TSHTF, but it is one option I keep in my shooter's toolbox.
[This message has been edited by Country Boy (edited September 08, 2000).]
Two of the ways I practice most are:
1) two quick shots to the chest (sternum), followed by a more aimed shot at the head. Repeat as necessary.
2) several quick shots to the chest, briefest of pauses to a$$ess, then several more quick shots to the chest.
#1 would be more effective against criminals with body armor. However, before something goes down, we should be aware of our backstop. I do not want to be on a crowded street, attempt a head shot, miss under stress, and have my bullet streak towards Mr. John Q. Public. Also, I would a$$ume that a hip shot would also be effective against criminals with body armor. I practice the Mozambique (sp) under simulated stress, and I don't know how accurate I'll be when TSHTF, but it is one option I keep in my shooter's toolbox.
[This message has been edited by Country Boy (edited September 08, 2000).]
jdthaddeus
New member
I think this is an excellent question. And, this is why I like to carry a .45 with the heaviest bullet possible.
All targets that I aim for when I have the option are surrounded by thick bone.
I aim for the chest, the head, and the pelvis, whichever one is the easiest target or needs the most attention.
I like the pelvis for followup shots because it will #1 impede their mobility (nothing is %100, but a broken pelvis is a good possibility of stopping someone) and #2 there is a lot of blood going around that area. A shot to the pelvis is likely to bleed somenoe out as fast a a shot to any other target with large blood vessels nearby, because it is all "hit and miss", nothing is for sure. The pelvis itself will bleed, and you have a high likelyhood of hitting an artery in that area, and the bone fragments may severe any arteries you miss, and lastly, the very structural damage along may STOP them. Seems like a pretty decent target to me, just about as likely to cause them to bleed out as any other target with lots of blood vessels.
COM is a good thing to go for, but if I have any time at all to even remotely aim, I am going for those three targets.
The liver shot is a big target, almost COM in most cases,a nd will kill but not STOP very well.
The best real STOPS seem to be severing a major artery, and that is pure LUCK. You can aim for the general area (chest, COM, pelvis) but it takes a little luck to actually hit a major blood vessel and STOP someone in short order.
For me, first comes the chest shot, and if that does not work, then body armor must be assumed, and a head shot or pelvis shot follows. The pelvis shot is safer and easier to make, and can be very effective against such an agressor. And hey, if that does not work, that is why I have more bullets in my gun
Let's also keep in mind that this is not the shooting range with silliouette targets. The guy probably is not going to be standing there facing you. Know your anatomy from all angles, and aim for the spot that gives the easiest target, and the most likelyhood of stopping them. This will be different in every case, which is why it is safe to just say "shoot for the largest mass you see".
Under real diress, I am just going to aim for the biggest target but if I have any time to aim I will be a little more selective.
With the heavy .45 I know that the momentum it carries will have the highest chance to penetrate through the chest or head and still leave a nice big hole, or break the pelvis and hopefully stop the attacker.
Of course, this is all just survival 101. If I really had time to aim ("like a sniper"), I might be more selective, but those are the biggest and most effective targets, while easiest to hit and cause a STOP, IMHO.
Lastly, there is no chance that we are all going to agree here. But, do to my medical background I know my human anatomy very well, and I know very well what it takes to stop somone, and those are my personal preferred targets to STOP someone in a fast paced survival situation where you have to weigh out the size of the target, how likely it is you will be able to hit it, and your odds of hitting something vital by aiming at it.
NOTHING is %100, but some targets are a little better than others for increasing your odds of hitting something vital enough to stop an agressor.
Even with a perfectly placed shot through a large blood vessel, do not count on it physically stopping someone for a very long time (in "fight seconds").
Only a CNS hit is "%100" and even that is not %100.
You learn real quick, the more you study all of this, to just try to avoid running across the wrong person, because a handgun will not be enough to stop them fast enough.
Sorry for the rambling...
[This message has been edited by jdthaddeus (edited September 08, 2000).]
All targets that I aim for when I have the option are surrounded by thick bone.
I aim for the chest, the head, and the pelvis, whichever one is the easiest target or needs the most attention.
I like the pelvis for followup shots because it will #1 impede their mobility (nothing is %100, but a broken pelvis is a good possibility of stopping someone) and #2 there is a lot of blood going around that area. A shot to the pelvis is likely to bleed somenoe out as fast a a shot to any other target with large blood vessels nearby, because it is all "hit and miss", nothing is for sure. The pelvis itself will bleed, and you have a high likelyhood of hitting an artery in that area, and the bone fragments may severe any arteries you miss, and lastly, the very structural damage along may STOP them. Seems like a pretty decent target to me, just about as likely to cause them to bleed out as any other target with lots of blood vessels.
COM is a good thing to go for, but if I have any time at all to even remotely aim, I am going for those three targets.
The liver shot is a big target, almost COM in most cases,a nd will kill but not STOP very well.
The best real STOPS seem to be severing a major artery, and that is pure LUCK. You can aim for the general area (chest, COM, pelvis) but it takes a little luck to actually hit a major blood vessel and STOP someone in short order.
For me, first comes the chest shot, and if that does not work, then body armor must be assumed, and a head shot or pelvis shot follows. The pelvis shot is safer and easier to make, and can be very effective against such an agressor. And hey, if that does not work, that is why I have more bullets in my gun
Let's also keep in mind that this is not the shooting range with silliouette targets. The guy probably is not going to be standing there facing you. Know your anatomy from all angles, and aim for the spot that gives the easiest target, and the most likelyhood of stopping them. This will be different in every case, which is why it is safe to just say "shoot for the largest mass you see".
Under real diress, I am just going to aim for the biggest target but if I have any time to aim I will be a little more selective.
With the heavy .45 I know that the momentum it carries will have the highest chance to penetrate through the chest or head and still leave a nice big hole, or break the pelvis and hopefully stop the attacker.
Of course, this is all just survival 101. If I really had time to aim ("like a sniper"), I might be more selective, but those are the biggest and most effective targets, while easiest to hit and cause a STOP, IMHO.
Lastly, there is no chance that we are all going to agree here. But, do to my medical background I know my human anatomy very well, and I know very well what it takes to stop somone, and those are my personal preferred targets to STOP someone in a fast paced survival situation where you have to weigh out the size of the target, how likely it is you will be able to hit it, and your odds of hitting something vital by aiming at it.
NOTHING is %100, but some targets are a little better than others for increasing your odds of hitting something vital enough to stop an agressor.
Even with a perfectly placed shot through a large blood vessel, do not count on it physically stopping someone for a very long time (in "fight seconds").
Only a CNS hit is "%100" and even that is not %100.
You learn real quick, the more you study all of this, to just try to avoid running across the wrong person, because a handgun will not be enough to stop them fast enough.
Sorry for the rambling...
[This message has been edited by jdthaddeus (edited September 08, 2000).]
I'm reading lot about head shots. Let me say this. During firearms certification the average police officers score on my small department is 87%. now I dont think we are the exception to this rule. during police shootouts the effective accuracy Decreases to somewhere under 50% It is VERY difficult to hit a moving target while you're ****ting your pants! Center of mass double tap, triple tap, empty the gun into the target! do what it takes to end the threat! if you are good enough to hit a moving target in the head you could be forced to explain why you didn't shoot to wound in court. stranger things have happened.