When BG takes control of your gun.
- Thread starter dantactac
- Start date
Dan:
Fed hit it on the head. You won't have any knowledge regarding the skill level of the bad guy, so don't waste brainsweat and/or training time worrying about. Get a gun that works for you, learn how to use it, and integrate weapon retention and disarming skills into your training regimen.
If you really want to play the odds, you could track down something esoteric, like one of the little South African 9mms with the Garand style safety, but then why bother?
Train, train, train.....
Fed hit it on the head. You won't have any knowledge regarding the skill level of the bad guy, so don't waste brainsweat and/or training time worrying about. Get a gun that works for you, learn how to use it, and integrate weapon retention and disarming skills into your training regimen.
If you really want to play the odds, you could track down something esoteric, like one of the little South African 9mms with the Garand style safety, but then why bother?
Train, train, train.....
This is the best solution yet. It works on three models: colt 1911, Beretta 92, and smith & wesson (forgot which). It's received good reviews.
http://www.smartlock.com/smartgun_detail.htm
http://www.smartlock.com/smartgun_detail.htm
sanchezero
New member
H&K P7
New Jersey Staties carry(carried?) the P7. There are no reports of officers being shot with their own guns; there are however, reports of bad guys unable to shoot these officers b/c they couldn't fire the weapon.
The P7 is rare enough that 'civilians' are unlikely to have knowledge of the squeezecocker.
Of course, you will pay twice what you would pay for a Glock and have 1/2 the ammo at your disposal
Its always a good idea to learn how to hang onto your gun AND have a little extra something to help get it back: OC, knife or BUG
New Jersey Staties carry(carried?) the P7. There are no reports of officers being shot with their own guns; there are however, reports of bad guys unable to shoot these officers b/c they couldn't fire the weapon.
The P7 is rare enough that 'civilians' are unlikely to have knowledge of the squeezecocker.
Of course, you will pay twice what you would pay for a Glock and have 1/2 the ammo at your disposal
Its always a good idea to learn how to hang onto your gun AND have a little extra something to help get it back: OC, knife or BUG
In the IT world that's called "security through obscurity" and it doesn't work there, either.
Find a gun that fits you, practice with it and train integrating it into your unarmed combatives program.
You can't know what level of skill or knowledge any particular BG is going to possess. Train for the worst-case scenario and be confident in skills you have by training them as well as you can, as often as you can.
Find a gun that fits you, practice with it and train integrating it into your unarmed combatives program.
You can't know what level of skill or knowledge any particular BG is going to possess. Train for the worst-case scenario and be confident in skills you have by training them as well as you can, as often as you can.
Gabe Suarez
New member
Greetings,
With all respect and good intentions, I suggest a perspective check. For example, let's not use too powerful a gun so the adversary won't hurt us as much when he shoots us with it. Or, let's not load the chamber so that when its taken from us they won't have an immediate shot.
Instead of thinking in this manner, carry the weapon with which you are most comfortable. (For me its a Glock 22). But those concerns voiced are very real, and its essential that one receive at least rudimentary weapon retention skills both in the holster and in the hand. This is not hard to learn. I can teach you two series of movement "flows" that will help you retain your weapon in most bad situations, and regain control of it if someone has taken it from you.
When we put on the mantle of "combatant" we walk in an area where there are no guarantees. But having a correct perspective, and the tools to make it happen will go a long way to staking things in your favor.
Cheers and Train Hard,
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International, Inc.
http://www.suarezinternational.com
With all respect and good intentions, I suggest a perspective check. For example, let's not use too powerful a gun so the adversary won't hurt us as much when he shoots us with it. Or, let's not load the chamber so that when its taken from us they won't have an immediate shot.
Instead of thinking in this manner, carry the weapon with which you are most comfortable. (For me its a Glock 22). But those concerns voiced are very real, and its essential that one receive at least rudimentary weapon retention skills both in the holster and in the hand. This is not hard to learn. I can teach you two series of movement "flows" that will help you retain your weapon in most bad situations, and regain control of it if someone has taken it from you.
When we put on the mantle of "combatant" we walk in an area where there are no guarantees. But having a correct perspective, and the tools to make it happen will go a long way to staking things in your favor.
Cheers and Train Hard,
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International, Inc.
http://www.suarezinternational.com
Gabe Suarez
New member
Livewire,
I'll be in Dallas in two weeks, but that class is filled to capacity. I'm hoping to be able to set up a couple of Texas trips in '03.
Thanks,
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International, Inc.
http://www.suarezinternational.com
I'll be in Dallas in two weeks, but that class is filled to capacity. I'm hoping to be able to set up a couple of Texas trips in '03.
Thanks,
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International, Inc.
http://www.suarezinternational.com
Mannlicher
New member
Simple answer, since you never learned any of the retention drills, all ya gotta do is pull out your OTHER gun, and cap him/her/it.
Back-up
For those who really take CCW seriously, handgun retention training is good, knowing how to carry and use back up weapons is good (should TSHTF), some empty hand training is good.......it's all good.
One thing you can practice immediately if you don't already do is practice awareness training. Essential to be on your guard whenever possible.
Another thing you can do is read TFL and other links constantly to keep up with training that is available.
Good luck.
For those who really take CCW seriously, handgun retention training is good, knowing how to carry and use back up weapons is good (should TSHTF), some empty hand training is good.......it's all good.
One thing you can practice immediately if you don't already do is practice awareness training. Essential to be on your guard whenever possible.
Another thing you can do is read TFL and other links constantly to keep up with training that is available.
Good luck.
If Plan "A" is to hand the bad guy your gun and hope he can't figure out how to use it before you get shot, I'd suggest going with Plan "B."
pax
Hunter's Seventy Seventh Rule: The measure of the menace of a man is not what hardware he carries, but what ideas he believes. -- The Hunter
pax
Hunter's Seventy Seventh Rule: The measure of the menace of a man is not what hardware he carries, but what ideas he believes. -- The Hunter
While, as Mannlicher suggests, pulling a second gun is a useful manuever, it doesn't obviate the need for weapon retention/disarming skills. It actually requires more!
If you are, knowingly and willingly, with malice of forethought, bringing a gun into "polite society", you are responsible for that gun. If someone attempts to take from your immediate control, you are responsible for appropriately dealing with that problem. If you decide to, knowingly and willingly, with malice of forethought, bring two guns into "polite society" you are responsible for both of them.
It becomes even more important, because you have to devide your attention to ensure the security of both pistols.
Power and Responsibility must be commensurate. If they are not, trouble (to be polite about it
) ensues.
If you are, knowingly and willingly, with malice of forethought, bringing a gun into "polite society", you are responsible for that gun. If someone attempts to take from your immediate control, you are responsible for appropriately dealing with that problem. If you decide to, knowingly and willingly, with malice of forethought, bring two guns into "polite society" you are responsible for both of them.
It becomes even more important, because you have to devide your attention to ensure the security of both pistols.
Power and Responsibility must be commensurate. If they are not, trouble (to be polite about it
) ensues.Dan - In the spirit of your original question: If not already familiar with it, you might want to check out Safe-T-Block, a $15 to $20 aftermarket widget that fits behind trigger on Glocks. With practice, pretty quick to dislodge but might be enough to keep a "snatcher" from using the Glock on you - or at least give you time get gun back - or to get he** out of range before he figured out how to pop it out. Best bet of course is to avoid getting into circumstances where BG can get in your "personal space" to begin with!
By the way, Welcome to TFL. "Search" function here will likely get you several more opinions on Safe-T-Blocks. At least a couple of mail order sources for the widget are given on "links" page at www.dentoncountysports.com. Another claimed advantage of the widget is in assisting those who have a problem with some of our pet pieves: "Keep your finger outside of the trigger guard until your sights are coming on target!". Again, welcome to TFL. Lots of knowledge (and opinions!) here.
By the way, Welcome to TFL. "Search" function here will likely get you several more opinions on Safe-T-Blocks. At least a couple of mail order sources for the widget are given on "links" page at www.dentoncountysports.com. Another claimed advantage of the widget is in assisting those who have a problem with some of our pet pieves: "Keep your finger outside of the trigger guard until your sights are coming on target!". Again, welcome to TFL. Lots of knowledge (and opinions!) here.
Mannlicher
New member
Gomez, let me reiterate : Simple answer, since you never learned any of the retention drills, all ya gotta do is pull out your OTHER gun, and cap him/her/it.
note carefully, that the first thing I said was "since you never learned any or the retention drills................."
I am at a loss to understand your mention of carrying a gun with 'malice aforethought' Do you mean that anyone that carries a gun is doing so with malice in his heart? You mention the term twice, so there must be some reason. Does going through one of your courses erase that malice?
I carry two, or more as the mood strikes. I have no malice, but then I won't be anyone's victim either.
note carefully, that the first thing I said was "since you never learned any or the retention drills................."
I am at a loss to understand your mention of carrying a gun with 'malice aforethought' Do you mean that anyone that carries a gun is doing so with malice in his heart? You mention the term twice, so there must be some reason. Does going through one of your courses erase that malice?
I carry two, or more as the mood strikes. I have no malice, but then I won't be anyone's victim either.
A very important reason one should be knowledgeable of retention techniques (above and beyond, or aside from..simply "shooting them off the muzzle") is that there will be times that someone is attempting to take your weapon but that perhaps a lesser amount of force (other than deadly) could be used. You don't want to limit yourself to simply deadly force responses. What if you're a healthy, 220lb male LE officer and the person attempting to disarm you is a small statured female. Sure, if you could convince a jury that you feared for your life a deadly force response would be warranted, but wouldn't it be nice to have more responses available? M. Ayoob, who's written many articles of the Lindell retention method (which has mixed reviews from people I've questioned) has me convinced about the value of these techniques. I'm also sold on the value of a magazine disconnect feature for open carry uniformed LE officers. There are apparently documented saves because of the feature.
EricO
EricO
Evidently, the post that I thought I made yesterday didn't make it through, so here goes.
Mannlicher,
I got , from your posts, that you feel that you don't need weapon retention skills and that you will "pull your other gun" to solve the problem.
My point was that carrying a second gun isn't a suitable arguement for not training in weapon retention, but actually requires more training because you are introducing another weapon into a dynamic situation.
As for the "malice aforethought" line, (grammar never was my specialty
) it was an attempt at "social commentarty. Perhaps I should have put the phrase in quotation marks. An unfortunately number of people in our society believe that the only reason to carry a gun is because you want to kill someone. Is that nonsense? Of course.
I was more concerned with the rest of the repeated phrase, namely that "knowingly and willingly, ... bringing a gun into "polite society", you are responsible for that gun." And "knowingly and willingly, ...bring two guns into "polite society" you are responsible for both of them.
Mannlicher,
I got , from your posts, that you feel that you don't need weapon retention skills and that you will "pull your other gun" to solve the problem.
My point was that carrying a second gun isn't a suitable arguement for not training in weapon retention, but actually requires more training because you are introducing another weapon into a dynamic situation.
As for the "malice aforethought" line, (grammar never was my specialty
) it was an attempt at "social commentarty. Perhaps I should have put the phrase in quotation marks. An unfortunately number of people in our society believe that the only reason to carry a gun is because you want to kill someone. Is that nonsense? Of course.I was more concerned with the rest of the repeated phrase, namely that "knowingly and willingly, ... bringing a gun into "polite society", you are responsible for that gun." And "knowingly and willingly, ...bring two guns into "polite society" you are responsible for both of them.