When a Cop Needs Help

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Tanzer

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I'm posting this here in response to Doug38PR's Scenario 5. It started a lively debate that I may have inadvertantly squashed by getting off his topic, which was quite narrow (no offense Doug) or maybe everyone just went to work or to bed-I dunno. I'd like to broaden the issue.
Around here, the Staties are cream of the crop. Part linebacker, part marine to the 3rd degree. They speak to you like you're their boss - "Yes Sir, I'll check it out, Sir". But local towns can be another issue. I don't know about your neck of the woods, but around here, three jobs; Teachers, fire and police, have about 500 applicants for every position. So we get the best, right? Not so fast. Unfortunately, nepetism (hiring friends, family) runs rampant. There, I said it. I'm a teacher, and some of my "superiors" are people I helped get through courses. Back to the point; NOT MOST, but SOME of our cops are just plain punks who got the job because Uncle Jim knows someone . I wrote my response to Doug last night after a local cop called me a stupid b*s*ard yesterday at a road construction site because I went between the wrong cones - I thought (and still think) he signaled me to do so.
Here's the question; We are armed citizens, most of whom have the "genetic make-up" to protect life. Most of whom would help someone in need. In a situation where ANY random cop is OBVIOUSLY in need of assistance (pinned down and unable to reach their radio-no shoulder remote). NOT assuming you are Rambo. Assuming all factors involved are conducive to you being ABLE to help (your 4 year old is not with you). To what degree do you help?

Personally, I'm willing to provide cover fire. I think they want their colleagues more than me. I'm willing to verbalize with them and take reasonable requests, including "Get the h*ll out". Of course, I'd call 911, but as in Doug's thread, I think getting him/her to their radio is priority 1 if possible - much faster response. I am VERY concerned about what would happen when the town clerk's nephew shows up in his squad car. On second thought, I'd be on the cell screaming "The guy behind the brown jeep is helping!!" If it were a Statie, keep in mind that help may take longer to arrive, but they have my absolute loyalty
Am I all wet on this one? I'm not a hero, but I won't stand by while any good guy is in obvious need.
 
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Glad you posted this Tanzer (no offense taken...in fact, in a way, you have taken this to the heart of my thread, which was a narrow basic what-would you do question).

My way of thinking, if somebody is fighting for their life and needs help, the last thing on my mind is if they are the county clerk's retarded cousin or nephew or the sheriff's punk son. They are a person in need of help. Just help them because they are where they are and you are where you are.
Don't worry about whether Barney Fife shows up with his bullet in his gun ready to blow his foot off our yours because he his....Barney.
 
I would help as best I could and almost did one day. Story in a moment.

I would never start laying down fire unless the cop and I coordinated it. The last thing I need to do is start shooting at the bad guy and have both him and the cop shooting at me for trying to help. I have seen instances on cops where a passing motorist helped out.

Now the story.

I was in traffic one day when this pink caddie comes flying in from the HOV lane into the fast lane and almost caused an accident. He was trying...it looked to me...to evade the police that was trying to pull him over for being solo in the HOV. Now, in front of me, I had this guy trying to aggressively push people out of his way (read run) and the police flying up on my bumper trying to head him off. It appeared he was trying to ellude. They made it through traffic and took the same exit as me but were way ahead. By the time I got to my exit they were stopped on the on ramp. I slowed, per GA law, and moved over just a bit when the dude got out of the caddie (you don't do that in GA) and started towards the officer who he dwarfed in size. The officer had his hand on his gun and ordered the guy into the vehicle and he hesitantly complied (it took more than one time of being told). Had he rushed the cop, I was prepared to stop and offer assistance. It looked to me that the cop was calling for backup as I got closer so I just slowed down more and made sure the perp saw me look at him good enough to make an ID. I would have never went to help with my gun because that is a good way to get shot by the cop, thinking you are helping the perp. Unless the bad guy had the cop's gun, I wouldn't introduce mine. In that instance, I would try to run him down before drawing his fire.

Nothing came of it and the cop didn't advance so it appeared he was waiting on backup to approach the man.

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I would do the best I could to assist, without placing myself in a position where I would be the primary target of the assailant's interest - I'd get on the phone, to the police radio, or to the officer to directly assist him or her. Only under the direct order of the officer in need of aid would i actively engage the assailant, I have a family to get home to and they are always my first priority...
 
My default setting is to help people.

The occupation, religion, skin color, resident status, or sexual preference are all irrelevant and obstructive towards the true question at hand: Do you help your fellow man?

The degree to which I assist depends on the circumstances entirely. I have to look at myself in the mirror and live with my actions or inactions. I don’t intend to be ashamed of myself.

Sorry if that doesn’t address your original post, but I guess I just think this issue is a bit more broad than cops & non-cops.
 
The degree to which I assist depends on the circumstances entirely. I have to look at myself in the mirror and live with my actions or inactions. I don’t intend to be ashamed of myself.
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I would never start laying down fire unless the cop and I coordinated it. The last thing I need to do is start shooting at the bad guy and have both him and the cop shooting at me for trying to help
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I agree entirely. Good way to do the right thing and live.
The occupation, religion, skin color, resident status, or sexual preference are all irrelevant and obstructive towards the true question at hand: Do you help your fellow man?
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I almost agree entirely. If it's two gangbangers shooting it out, frantic cell phone call to help innocents. No, definately not just cops only. It's just that the scenario poses an obvious good guy under attack. Anything else must be assessed, and scenarios are extremely dynamic.
Doug, respectfully, I have to say that I am indeed afraid of Barney Fife. It may be my head, not my foot that he gets nervous and shoots.
 
NH has special exemptions for the use of deadly force if you are assisting a police officer at their request. In other words, if you volunteered to help and they asked you to cover them or somesuch, you'd have special protection under the law where justification for deadly force was concerned, likely in terms of a civil suit.

That said, I don't think it's a very likely scenario. After a disaster when additional units can't respond, perhaps. Otherwise, I think it's mostly mallninja fantasy.
 
As a former police officer I would not welcome the help of a citizen unless I had totally lost control of the situation. A citizen involving him or herself in a confrontation puts the officer in the position of having to assume the safety of the citizen as well as controlling the situation while backup is on the way. It divides the attention of the officer and confuses the issues. The officer does not know the training level of the citizen and therefore cannot rely on him for effective backup.:confused:

That being said however, if an officer is defending himself against overwhelming attack;or is wounded and unable to effectively defend himself, then any help is welcome.:D

The bottom line is, assess the situation, communicate with the officer. Stand ready to assist, and stay out of the line of fire. Remember that the officer's responsibility is to protect life, his, yours and even the perp's. A successful conclusion is the arrest of the perp without collateral damage or loss of life.:)
 
Doug, respectfully, I have to say that I am indeed afraid of Barney Fife. It may be my head, not my foot that he gets nervous and shoots
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Respectfully also, I wouldn't want Barney planting a .38 in my head either, but my point is don't worry about whether barney is going to show up or not. Barney showing up or not and shooting you is a maybe. Right now you have a definate. A man is in trouble and needs help NOW. Worry about Barney when he comes along. Handle it as it comes
 
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MacGille, what I'd always considered the most useful "assistance" a firearms owner could provide an officer would be to offer to lend them the use of a firearm or ammunition if the officer had to head into a dangerous situation and, for some reason, was unarmed or under-armed.

As in, if there was an off-duty officer who was the only one on-site to deal with a robbery standoff or such and appeared under-armed, I would certainly approach them and ask if they wished to borrow the PT92 and several magazines I had in my car, or the Sub 2000 if I had that.

On the other hand, if there was an immediate and obvious need, yes, I'd help. An example that comes to mind is the guy who was stopped for a traffic stop, popped out with an AK-47, and started spraying at the officer, who ducked behind their cruiser and was pinned down by fire. (This was on a busy highway, too!) If I saw that sort of thing, most certainly, if I had a long gun with me, I'd stop a distance away and try to stop the attacker.

The video of that is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL2-uMWD53M
 
If I see a cop in trouble I'm going to help him. That said, I will obey the law in so doing. If, for example, someone is trying to kill him, my way is clear to drop the attacker. If at all possible, say, if the cop is pinned down by gun fire, I'll call to him and ask him if he wants my help, and to deputize me if he does. If the danger is more immediate, e.g.; the guy is attacking the cop with a knife or a gun, I'll shoot him and be within my rights to do so.
 
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To any LEO's out there, I'm no mall ninja. I just want you to know that some of us have good morals and hopefully good heads. You're the boss - say get out and I will. No kissin' up either (read the original thread). Cheers to you who do it right. This can also be said to any good citizen in need (sounds like I should put my red cape on now, huh?), but you know what I mean. Myself and many others want a good relationship with the authorities, that's why we dialogue. Barney Fife, shame on you!
 
Nothing against the police, but I would want to be as far away from a firefight involving them as possible. Every cop within 50 miles will be burning the tires off of their vehicles to get there, and when they do they won't know who's who. I sure don't want to be standing there armed when they pull up.
 
Nothing against the police, but I would want to be as far away from a firefight involving them as possible. Every cop within 50 miles will be burning the tires off of their vehicles to get there, and when they do they won't know who's who. I sure don't want to be standing there armed when they pull up.
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What was the name of that "tower" in Texas where the sniper was shooting?

Pops
 
This might rub some the wrong way, but in all honesty, the extent to which I'd help would depend entirely on what jurisdiction I was in. In some parts of the country I'd risk my life to help a cop in need; in other areas I'd do nothing.

Why the difference? Well, in some areas of the country -- I'll not name them here -- there are police departments whose officers would be more than happy to bust me, a peaceful citizen, for exercising my Second Amendment rights. They give me a choice between being helpless against an armed, violent criminal and risking arrest for carrying illegally. If there's a reason why I should risk my life to help people who would prevent me from defending myself or my loved ones, I'm afraid I don't see it. And no, "just following orders" is not an excuse for enforcing violations of the Constitution that so many people have shed blood for. "Get the law changed if you don't like it" doesn't fly, either: I'm only one person, and I have no control over the laws in this country, since I have no control over the will of the majority or of politicians. Besides, the Constitution is the highest law of the land already, and the Bill of Rights was meant to be non-negotiable regardless of the opinion of the majority.

So, if I was in a relatively free area of America rather than one of the police state areas, I'd use whatever gun I had with me to the best of my ability to eliminate the threat. If possible, I'd yell to the officer first -- "Do you need help? I'm armed!" -- so he wouldn't think I was another threat and start sending bullets my way also.

I wouldn't hesitate to help another fellow citizen in need in the same way, as I don't put the police above or beneath other citizens.
 
As a former police officer I would not welcome the help of a citizen unless I had totally lost control of the situation. A citizen involving him or herself in a confrontation puts the officer in the position of having to assume the safety of the citizen as well as controlling the situation while backup is on the way. It divides the attention of the officer and confuses the issues. The officer does not know the training level of the citizen and therefore cannot rely on him for effective backup.
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Well said, and as another former officer I would agree completely. I've got enough trouble trying to take care of myself and get the BG shut down without having my life complicated by having to worry about taking care of some good samaritan. If I'm out of the fight, yes, please come save me, but if the BG is over there and I'm over here, and/or I'm not severely injured, or similar, the best thing to do is just get to a phone and call for help.
 
Doug38's Scenerio 5? I though he had put up probably 1000 scenerios..............

The most I will do for any cop in 'trouble' is to call 911 for them. I am not stopping, not getting involved, and not putting myself in danger.
They asked for the job, they get paid for it, and they know its dangerous.
 
there are police departments whose officers would be more than happy to bust me, a peaceful citizen, for exercising my Second Amendment rights. They give me a choice between being helpless against an armed, violent criminal and risking arrest for carrying illegally.
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This is more political than tactical, but don't blame the cops for that. We do not make the laws, and frequently we disagree with the laws we are asked to enforce. But believe me, you don't want the police deciding what laws should be enforced and which ones shouldn't. Got a problem with the law, take it up with the legislature, don't blame the police.
 
I'm with Mannlicher. The police who responded said they would regard you as a meddling pest at best and a threat at worst. They have a mike on their shoulders, which will summon more cops quicker than you can say "broken arrow" and certainly quicker than a 911 call, which may go to God knows where before it gets sorted out and sent anywhere useful depending on whether you're in the county or city. I don't expect them to protect me (that's what Mr. Steyr is for) and they don't want me to attempt to protect them. That's what the other cops are for. I want to be as far away as possible, and no- I didn't see anything. When I'm driving I watch the road, not what's happening on the shoulder. When I pass a police stop of a vehicle my primary consideration is not running into the cop or his car, not gawking at the events unfolding there. It is a fact that you tend to steer toward what you're looking at so I look at the road in front of me.
 
Of course I'd help - I've helped PD physically restrain someone when they obviously needed help and was thanked for my efforts. My only worry would be another officer arriving on the scene, or even the officer I'm trying to help, confusing me for a bad guy.
 
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