Wheel Weight Nightmare

BlackPowderBen

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I have been shooting .451 balls cast from wheel weights out of my remington 1858. They have been giving me nothing but headaches, first the screw that holds the rammer assembly on my gun snapped, next the powder inc loader couldn't ram the balls in unless I smacked them really hard.
Pure lead for now on for me!
Any of you cast round balls from wheel weights for cap and ball revolvers?
 
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If you must use wheel weights, then one method would be to cast slightly under-size and load with a patch.
The hard ball will have minimal effect.
this is not the main stream but some folks swear by patching their balls even in a C&B revolver
 
There's a lot of zink in wheel weights these days so watch out for that. They're trying to fade out the use of lead.
 
What Rookie21 stated. There's so much zinc wheel weights out there today that you have to be careful on what you pick up for the lead pot. Try sticking to plumbers' lead pipes.
 
Don't use the clip on weights, they're too hard. Use the stick on weights, they're 99.5% pure lead and are what I mostly use. If you don't have your heat up too high zinc will float on top. Any shiny weights in a bucket of old lead will be zinc.
 
I smelted weights about a year ago

That is the last time I did it. The reason I mention the time frame is that this wheel weight material issue appears to be changing fairly quickly.

Got about forty pounds from my mechanic friend. I was able to use about 25 pounds.

I have gotten pretty good at being able to visually sort the weights an eliminate the ones that are too hard.

What remains gives me lead that is BHN14 from the clip-ons that I keep and about 11 for the stick-ons

Like Hawg says, the stick-ons are pretty soft.

Now I have my lead separated in three bins by BHN. 11 and below, 14 and above and everything in between.

Round balls and pistol pullets from the soft stuff. and Rifle bullets from the hard stuff.

I check the hardness of the lead often.
 
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There's a lot of zink in wheel weights these days so watch out for that. They're trying to fade out the use of lead
Misleading. Lead based wheel weights do not contain zinc. Zinc wheel weights do not contain lead. They are completely different. Zinc melts at a higher temperature than lead alloys, so they are easily identified when smelting a batch of wheel weights. Nevertheless, black powder muzzle loading has always been a matter of using pure (or nearly pure) lead...leave wheel weights for casting of bullets for brass cartridge guns.
 
When I first got a bunch of wheel weights I sorted the lead ones from the zinc and other materials. Should've put the clip on's aside though
 
What daHermit says

This is an indication of the level of complexity of the issue.

In an attempt to make myself more knowledgeable I put a call in to the tech manager at one of the larger wheel weight manufacturers. She was surprised to learn that I was not some tree hugging wacko. What I wanted was simple facts for my own use and not to crash the Republican National Convention.

I made this call about four years ago.

She said:

1. The proportion of lead in wheel weights is kept high for financial reasons. If there is much other stuff in the metal it is very likely something that is substantially more valuable than lead. She mentioned tin, antimony, bismuth and "others". My additional comment here is that it may also raise the smelting temperature which adds to the cost of the process.

2. The proportion can only economically go so high since the purification of lead or the acquisition of pure lead is expensive and so the price goes up for that reason. They don't purify the lead, they smelt what they get.

3. A given batch of weights will be somewhere above 95% pure lead. But the actual purity of that batch is hard to predict since it relies upon what they get. (Remember, this was four years ago.)

4. The picture goes more and more out of focus since a rising percentage of the weights in use come from China. In her words (four years ago) nobody knows what the Chinese are putting in their weights.

When I did this cursory inquiry there wasn't much information on the web about weights. Now there is.

Presently, eleven states have either banned lead weights, are considering a ban or ban the use on state owned vehicles. That was also four years ago.

Here is another thought:

You can conveniently write a law that controls lead proportion in three parts of the process. Manufacture, distribution and use.

In the manufacturing process you can test the materials that go into the process and the weights that come out of it.

In the distribution part you can make it illegal to sell weights that contain lead (or an excessive percent of it)

In the use part you can hold owners and operators of vehicles accountable.

When you think about it, enforcement of all of this is expensive and none of it is easy.

Ever have a regulator come to you and tell you he was confiscating the wheel weights from your car to test them?

Those regulations covering manufacture would not apply in China. Imported weights would have to be regulated either through distribution or use.

What about the distribution piece? Does the government confiscate samples of weights that are sold for example by Grainger or others and test them? Or do they require that the distributor state that the weights are lead free? And if that is the case, can the distributor cite statements by the manufacturer as to the lead content as happens with formaldehyde in laminate flooring?

When I was on active duty, my ship was in the yards for a maintenance period. We were required to lay plywood on the interior decks and flooring to prevent damage to the floor from equipment being moved around.

My division got hold of about forty sheets of plywood and stacked them for use the following day. An inspector happened by and looked at the plywood promptly and firmly declaring we could not use it since it was not "Flame Retardant".

My people were crushed since this setback would delay virtually everything we wanted to do.

"Not to worry." I declared. I had two Chiefs working for me. After the work day ended and all of the inspectors were gone, we made up a stencil that said "Flame Retardant" and marked the first five sheets of plywood in the stack.

The next day we found the inspector and showed him the plywood. Same plywood, same stack, same location, same inspector. He read the markings on the plywood (paint still wet from the evolution).

His ruling; "Well done sir, carry on."
 
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testing lead?

If I were smelting, which I am not (even though I have kept a can of old wheel weights), I would make some simple device to test hardness. Perhaps a vertical rod on a base, with a pointed sliding weight to indent the material being tested. I think that is how the industry tests with an expensive device, by indenting.

You could start your dropping weight from exactly the same height each test, calibrate your device with known materials and develop a scaled chart from the measured indentations that would at least give you a fairly accurate presort of your unkowns. You probably would still need to separate things by temperature and skimming, but maybe not, or at least not much.

I know the 'old hands' at eyeballing and nicking with a pocket knife will poo-poo this, but I am not an 'old hand' yet and that is where I would start my quest to become one. From what I read there is much to know when casting.

I also think that when your smelting days are over, you should destroy any cast iron vessel which you have used, that might possibly be used by someone to cook food after a garage sale!
 
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Zinc melts at a higher temperature than lead alloys, so they are easily identified when smelting a batch of wheel weights.

Zinc melts at 787.2F. Lead melts at 621.5.

So it is true that the Zinc melts at a higher temperature, and as long as your smelt pot is below about 787F the Zinc weights will float on the lead. But you have to be careful - if your pot gets hot enough to melt Zinc - and that is easily possible - you will end up with a zinc-lead alloy and that will ruin the lead for bullet making.

So you need to be diligent about what you put into your melt pot, or stay on top of your melt pot with a thermometer and constantly be skimming off floaters.

As for BP guns, I'd stick with pure lead. I buy mine from rotometals.com.

Steve
 
Mailmaker plus 1

Except I haven't got started buying metal. Too cheap I guess....

To Foolsrushn,

You have described fairly accurately the principle of operation of the Lee hardness tester. Uses a calibrated microscope to measure the diameter of an indentation made by a spring loaded ball.

Works fairly well. Might not be accurate to the 4rth decimal point.
 
As a greasemonkey, many of the stick on weights we buy seem to be much softer than the lead alloy weights that have a steel clip. A lot of the weights we see aren't lead at all. Many are zinc or steel.
 
Wolf and Raven - I'd like to know where you are getting your information about patching round ball in a cap and ball revolver? I've been shooting C & B for over 50 years and have never seen that practice - it is ill advised at best.

The reason or using an oversized soft lead ball is to get a "shear ring" of lead upon seating the ball in the chamber in order to get a tight seal. Using a patched ball negates that - plus - as a chamber is fired, there is flame which could easily ignight any patch in an adding chamber - a loose enough ball and wham - you've got a chain fire.

In addition . . . the ball must be of sufficient size so that when it enters the forcing cone, it swages down to give a full and firm grip in the rifling. Whether C & B or cartridge - anything less that bore size - i.e. groove diameter - will cause leading and affect accuracy. That's why you "slug" a bore to find out the actual bore dimension in order to select a bullet that will fit - usually for a cast bullet, I go .002 oversize of actual bore dimension on a cartridge handgun.

On C & B . . your chamber dimension determines the actual size of the ball before it enters the forcing cone and enters the rifling. If the C & B revolver is made correctly, the chamber (i.e. throat) will be of a sufficient size to give you a lead shear ring with the proper size soft lead ball which will also end up sufficiently oversize of the bore so that you get correct ball to bore size.

While many do use a "wad" under the ball - i.e. felt wonder wad, etc. - i use a 1/8" lube soaked leather wad that I punch .375 so it is a tight fit in the chamber under the ball - cloth patching as used in a typical ML smoothbore or rifle for round ball should never be used. Not only does it defeat the design of how the revolver is supposed to function, it's just plain "dangerous".
 
bedbugbilly: While everyone is welcome to their opinions (and there are many) I've heard of enough folks successfully utilizing patched round balls in C&B revolvers to believe it is perfectly safe. My opinion is that it is more work than it's worth, but some folks like to dance to their own tune and I don't criticize them for it. (ever try to get a consensus on the best patch lube recipe? or which is better, Colt, Remington,etc.?) I've heard it has even been done on the line at Friendship plenty of times (which impressed some folks a lot more than me)
 
I could see a patched round ball being sufficiently tight to make a nice gas-tight seal preventing chain fires. Of course if it is too tight I would expect it to just shear off the patch.

But I would think on firing that as the bullet left the chamber and entered the forcing cone that the patch would be peeled off of the ball as it hits the rifling, leaving an under-sized, naked ball going down the barrel. I dunno - maybe the pressure of the gas keeps the patch around the ball?

Steve
 
It would be nice if someone who actually has shot PRBs in their C&Bs would comment. I suspect that the patching material would get hung up in the cylinder gap and raise hell with cylinder rotation. Who's gonna be trimming the patches and then ramming the balls deeper to clear the gap. To me, it seems dumb and impractical and rarely tried if at all (beyond a couple of shots and then abandoned as a waste).

As to WWs, I keep a pair of wire cutters handy and chomp into any WWs I suspect might not be lead. Believe you me, the zinc or steel ones are HARD & get tossed. The peel off ones are easily recognizable and sorted for use in C&Bs.
 
I had a few .36 balls "to get rid of", to shoot them in my Navy I just squashed them a little so that they were .38ish and sheered a lead ring.
 
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