What's wrong with .38 super?

C

canuck1911

New member
I've been reading a lot of posyts recently that describe the .38 super as being less recoil than a .45, straighter shooting, more accurate, the balistics of a .357, and one extra in the magazine. If all this were true, I'd expect this to be a very popular cartridge for LEOs, self defense, etc. But only competition shooters seem to really use it. So, my question is, what's wrong with it?
 
You've answered your own question in that it's high on the list for a defence caliber but in a larger frame gun ya might as well pick the larger .45acp or the 10mm. I own one of the EAAs with the old 20 shot mags that's been tricked out with SA trigger, match barrel to handle 9X23 also and narrowed frame. It lives in the safe, my hi-cap .45s and 10s just hit harder. henry
 
The problem is that you dont get a great selection of loads for it. You can t go to the range and pick up a few boxes of Triton, Cor-Bon, Federal Hydras, Golden Sabers, or what not... They just arent around.
At least - I have not seen them on the shelves of the ranges I have been to.

Should these factory loads be as readily available as or favorite .45 and 9MM loads - then I think you would see a great boost in this calibers popularily.
 
The problem with the 38 super is it requires a 45 frame to fire it. I would rather have a 10mm or 45 than a 38 super. It is also weaker than the 357 sig which fits in smaller guns. The 38 super also does not stack very well in double stack mags. Hence the creation of the 9x23.
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
 
The .38 Super has been around for well more than half a century. It was (is?)somewhat popular in countries like Mexico with the prohibition of private ownership of guns in military calibers. Dimensionally it is the same as the old .38 Auto though loaded to much higher pressures.

For many years if you wanted a .38 Super in this country you could have either a Colt 1911 or a Colt Commander. Neither was particularly common - probably less common than the Colt's in 9mm and there weren't a lot of those. (Yes, there was the occasional "furin" gun.)

For most of the civilian market in those years the revolver was the undisputed king.

The caliber never quite died, but there wasn't enough general interest to warrant any kind of load development by the major makers. Unfortunately none of the makers wanted to do the load development that might have improved the popularity of the caliber.

With the rise of autos in popularity and the upsurge in interest in IPSC type disciplines with the emphasis on "major/minor" classifications the .38 Super picked up some adherents because it was easier to tweak it to make major and still have the 10 round capacity like a 9mm.

Part of the difficulty with the round is that it didn't always feed reliably in the Colts in any other configuration than the standard RNFMJ. This could be cured with the application of some skilled smithing, but the problems made many who looked at the caliber think "why bother?". Hi-cap 9s began to show up, other calibers such as the 10mm and others showed up.

The .38 Super has some potential for accuracy work as the case is a "semi-rimmed" design and can headspace on the rim rather than on the case mouth - thus allowing more consistency in headspacing and ignition.

It arguably does not have the potential of the .357 Sig - but it’s close – and was around for nearly 3/4 of a century before the .357 Sig and never caught on. Mass appeal can be a fickle phenomenon. If Colt had gotten behind the caliber in the 1930s and hyped it as the greatest self-defense/hunting round – and worked with Remington or Winchester to develop loads that would support the hype it might have rivaled the popularity of the .357. But those were “revolver years” and no one bothered.


Sorry for the rambling - but I like the round and regret it's lack of popularity.


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Jim Fox
 
Here's a question: How does the .38 Super compare ballistically against the .40?

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Dan

Si vis pacem para bellum!

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I have the stats on 3 commercially available 38 super +p loads :

115 gr 1300 fps and 430 ft.lbs.
125 gr 1215 fps and 425 " "
147 gr 1100 fps and 395 " "

comparable .40 S&W

155 gr 1140 fps and 447 ft.lbs.
180 gr 1015 fps and 412 ft.lbs.

There are of course many other loadings but this gives you some comparison, the .40 has the edge but the .38 super offers more than 9mm para, in the real world I doubt there's much in it.

Mike H
 
JimFox and Mike H: Thanks for the information and thoughts on the .38 Super. I have a Colt Commander in .38 Super and like it very much.
Colt still produces pistols in this caliber from their Custom Shop. They are expensive but worth the trouble. I would recommend it to anyone interested in the 1911 model.

BTW: The .38 Super was moderately popular among peace officers (especially in the Southwestern U.S.) during the 30s and 40s. As noted, it eventually lost ground to the .357 S&W Magnum revolvers.

This caliber is always poised for a comeback, but it is highly dependent upon the popularity of large-frame pistols as an operating platform.

In contrast, the .357 Sig works in medium and smaller pistols, which are all the rage now.

Personally, I think a decent self-defense handgun should not weigh less than 30 ounces, but I am kind of a mossback in that sense.
 
Hello. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with .38 Super, especially if you handload.
One of the most accurate autoloaders I ever owned was an old Colt Gov't Model in Super in which I added a BarSto bbl. True,the factory rounds from Remington and Winchester are about like Plus P 9mm, but handloaded Supers are something else again. I'm not referring to trying to make major or push the Super beyond its means, but it can be "helped." Yes, the guns are usually large for it, but boy does that help dampen its already light recoil. Best.
 
Well... I am building one right now. I picked up a Colt Commander last weekend. It goes to my smith today to have a new beavertail, new trigger, new hammer, new sights, new grips, a heavy guide rod and some reliability work. Probably will go to MadDog later for his special finish and to get a GunGlove 2000 Taylor Thunderbolt fitted to it. (I'll be the SO at IDPA Nationals wearing the Team MadDog t-shirt. ;) )

Yeah I will reload for it. But I need to get some practice rounds to start building a brass supply. So far, cole distributing is the only one I have found with any kind of reasonable price on 1000 round lots; $174 per 1000. Anyone know of anyone else with similar pricing???

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Bubba
IDPA# A04739
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It is long been a principal of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully. - Jeff Cooper

[This message has been edited by Bubba (edited May 13, 2000).]
 
Mike H,

Thanks for the info on the commercially available 38 super loads.

Anyone considering the 38 super needs to keep in mind that the commercial 38 super loads are somewhat weak, due the possibility of them being chambered in older, weaker 38 acp guns.

However, handloading is where this round really shines.

38 super/supercomp/9X23 can all be loaded (safely) to push a 125 grn. bullet at 1450+ fps. A fully supported barrel w/integral feed ramp should always be used with these loads.

A most excellent caliber, IMHO.
 
Same thing that's wrong w the 9x23? :)

Nothing "wrong" with either. US Secret Service flirted w it for yrs, ended up w +P+ 9mm and now 357 SIG.

Compared to the 9/357 SIG? Larger frame, about same specs from same barrel lengths, less reliability in service guns.

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Nothing is wrong with it. It's just a cartrige that for some reason stayed obscure and never became popular, much like the 41 mag.
 
Yeah Robert, thanks. I have found new brass. I was just wanting to shoot a couple 1000 rounds before I started loading. I really need the practice. :) And I wanted some +P to break the gun in after all the mods. One I have done that... I will settle into a more normal reloading pattern for the little Colt. The Cole-distributing ammo is that Mexican stuff, Aguila. I was not too happy with their .22 ammo. Anyone shot any of their centerfire stuff?



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Bubba
IDPA# A04739
====
It is long been a principal of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully. - Jeff Cooper
 
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