Went shooting with a friend yesterday. I with my AR-15, he with his old Win 30-30. He had a Lyman peep sight on it, and plans to use it for off-hand 100-yd matches. We set standard 100-yd Remington targets up and fired srings of 5 shots. That was not the first time I have used peep sights as the AR-15 carry handle has them, but when I used the Lyman yesterday, everything became half-size. In fact, the target stand which is about 6 1/2' tall, fit entirely into the field of view, which meant the 12" target at 100 yds shrank to 6". I could no longer make out any detail on the target and basically just saw a small blob of white and orange, and I had to strain just to see that. Keep in mind I have better than 20/20 vision. Why would anybody want to use this type of peep sight when your target appears to be actually smaller in size? Why not just use open sights? BTW, my groups were about 8-10" and my friends were about 6".
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What's the sense in a peep sight?
- Thread starter rock_jock
- Start date
Badger Arms
New member
Didn't follow your explanation too much. In reality, the peep sight takes much of the fuzziness away from the target which makes it appear actual size. Your eyes make the target appear larger than it truly is. Your mind then interpolates the size and shape of what you are looking at. A peep site is many times more accurate than standard open sights because of one thing. your mind naturally centers the front sight in the aperature. This means the probability of error is very low.
The target doesn't shrink, it becomes more distinct. Your eyes should focus on the front post and the target should, indeed, be a blurr. The smaller the peep, the more distinct the target will be in relation to the sharp front sight. Straining to see the target will invariably result in poor accuracy. 6" is not that good for a 30-30 at all. I can get that with my MAK-90 and open sights!
The target doesn't shrink, it becomes more distinct. Your eyes should focus on the front post and the target should, indeed, be a blurr. The smaller the peep, the more distinct the target will be in relation to the sharp front sight. Straining to see the target will invariably result in poor accuracy. 6" is not that good for a 30-30 at all. I can get that with my MAK-90 and open sights!
Munro Williams
New member
The problem with the smaller peep sights is that they are useless in the rain: one drop of water and it's flooded. As Oleg pointed out to me, the newer, wider peeps are the way to go.
Good question. A few of my observations;
Fast target aquisition. Eye automatically seeks center of peep. Look at target, shoulder weapon, front sight, bang. Much faster than aligning front and rear sights for me.
Peep sights obstruct less of the target than conventional open sights. Perhaps not an issue for slow fire paper targets but a definite plus for moving targets/snap shooting.
For under 150 yard large game shots, only advantage optical sights have for me is better low light performance.
6" 100 yard group probably have more to do with the weapon, cartridge, shooter than the sighting equipment, IMHO.
Fast target aquisition. Eye automatically seeks center of peep. Look at target, shoulder weapon, front sight, bang. Much faster than aligning front and rear sights for me.
Peep sights obstruct less of the target than conventional open sights. Perhaps not an issue for slow fire paper targets but a definite plus for moving targets/snap shooting.
For under 150 yard large game shots, only advantage optical sights have for me is better low light performance.
6" 100 yard group probably have more to do with the weapon, cartridge, shooter than the sighting equipment, IMHO.
"Your eyes make the target appear larger than it truly is"
No, Badger, that is the opposite of what I was seeing. I would look at the target before I settled in behind the peep sight, and then when I looked through the peep sight, the target became much smaller, not larger. Also, you make two statements that appear to be contradictory:
"The target doesn't shrink, it becomes more distinct"
"...the target should, indeed, be a blurr"
????
I only know what I saw, which was a much small target.
No, Badger, that is the opposite of what I was seeing. I would look at the target before I settled in behind the peep sight, and then when I looked through the peep sight, the target became much smaller, not larger. Also, you make two statements that appear to be contradictory:
"The target doesn't shrink, it becomes more distinct"
"...the target should, indeed, be a blurr"
????
I only know what I saw, which was a much small target.
Badger Arms
New member
Okay, before you look through the peep, your eyes are making the target appear larger than it actually is BEFORE you look through the peep. With the peep, rather than 'shrinking' the target you see, it simply makes that target more distinct. This removal of the fuzziness makes the target appear smaller but in reality you are just seeing it better. What you were seeing is the focusing of the target and therefore, preceptually, it was getting smaller but magnification didn't really change any. If you look through a camera lens at a target and then unfocus the camera, you will see that the black gets significantly larger but you aren't zooming. Understand? A peep makes the depth of the area that is focused much deeper.
As for the other two statements you took as contradictory, you must understand depth of field. A small aperature makes things that are far away and close up distinct. The smaller the aperature, the more sharp your target and front site will appear. You can, in theory, focus on the front site post and still have a fairly sharp target at 100 yards. Now, in explaining what you saw, I was also trying to tell you that seeing a sharp target meant you were focusing on the target not the front sight.
Finally, as for the inaccuracy, if your eyes are better than 20/20, you might indeed be far-sighted which would make peep accuracy rather difficult. The front site post might not be as distinct as it could be.
I hope this isn't confusing you. I've taken Photography classes and these explained the phenomenon much better than I'm explaining to you. Suffice it to say that it's an optical illusion and the peep is better than open sites for most purposes.
As for the other two statements you took as contradictory, you must understand depth of field. A small aperature makes things that are far away and close up distinct. The smaller the aperature, the more sharp your target and front site will appear. You can, in theory, focus on the front site post and still have a fairly sharp target at 100 yards. Now, in explaining what you saw, I was also trying to tell you that seeing a sharp target meant you were focusing on the target not the front sight.
Finally, as for the inaccuracy, if your eyes are better than 20/20, you might indeed be far-sighted which would make peep accuracy rather difficult. The front site post might not be as distinct as it could be.
I hope this isn't confusing you. I've taken Photography classes and these explained the phenomenon much better than I'm explaining to you. Suffice it to say that it's an optical illusion and the peep is better than open sites for most purposes.
A small enough aperture acts as a "pinhole" lens. You can actually use a pinhole instead of a lens to form a photographic image.
Here's an interesting thing I discovered by accident about rifles with rear leaf sights. Illuminate a small black bullseye target in a dark place, say with a lamp at the end of a dark hall. Stand in the dark at the far end and sight the bullseye as you would normally. Now raise your point of aim slightly and to one side. You can see a dim image of the bull below the top edge of the rear leaf, and if you're nearsighted like me, the image will be sharper as well. You don't really need a rifle to see this effect; a ruler or any kind of sharp edge held at arm's length will do.
Here's an interesting thing I discovered by accident about rifles with rear leaf sights. Illuminate a small black bullseye target in a dark place, say with a lamp at the end of a dark hall. Stand in the dark at the far end and sight the bullseye as you would normally. Now raise your point of aim slightly and to one side. You can see a dim image of the bull below the top edge of the rear leaf, and if you're nearsighted like me, the image will be sharper as well. You don't really need a rifle to see this effect; a ruler or any kind of sharp edge held at arm's length will do.
Badger,
I appreciate your patience. What you said makes sense, sort of, but I think I need to get back out and use my AR-15 with the carry handle peep sight to resolve this issue. I remember taking a physics class in college that dealt specifically with optics, and I didn't understand much of it then either.
I appreciate your patience. What you said makes sense, sort of, but I think I need to get back out and use my AR-15 with the carry handle peep sight to resolve this issue. I remember taking a physics class in college that dealt specifically with optics, and I didn't understand much of it then either.
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
Are you focusing on your front sight? Front sight clear, target fuzzy? Just a thought.
Precisely, Spartacus. You're supposed to focus on the front site, allowing the target to become somewhat blurry. With the M1, the target aquistion is extremely easy with the military peep. As a matter of fact, the Match peeps are smaller. The peep on my MAS 49/56 is very small. I believe that it really depends on where your cheek weld occurs on the rifle as to where they design the eye relief. With the M1 the cheekweld is further back than on the MAS.
I've actually convered my SKS to a peep and improved my scores. I've also added a peep to my PARA .45 pistol for the same reason. And, Rock Jock, if your friends groups were smaller than yours, (8-10" compared to 6") I'd say the peep did it's job.
Rome
I've actually convered my SKS to a peep and improved my scores. I've also added a peep to my PARA .45 pistol for the same reason. And, Rock Jock, if your friends groups were smaller than yours, (8-10" compared to 6") I'd say the peep did it's job.
Rome