What's the diagnosis?

C

cdoc42

New member
I just came back from the range where I checked newly developed "home defense" loads for my .410/.45 "Judge" with a 3-inch barrel.

I used the Hornady Handbook, 4th Edition:

1) Hornady XTP 250gr
13.0gr of 2400 CCI 350Mag primer 800 fps(MAx = 13.3gr for 850fps)

2) Hornady 200gr cast #4526 SWC
13.5gr 2400 CCI 350 Mag primer 900fps (Max =14.6gr, 1000fps)

3) All American 200gr cast - same load as Hornady cast

The first load fired with nothing unexpected but sooty cases and evidence of unburned powder granules. 5- shot Group was all in a 4-inch square at 25 yards

Load #2 produced a normal sounding report with the first shot, then shot #2 made a "pphhttt"leaving me to believe there was no powder in that case. I saw the bullet hole in the target but I opened the cylinder anyway to find
unburned powder still in the case, the cylinders and the barrel. I cleaned everything out and fired the next 3, finding the same exact situation each time. However, all shots were in the target but with a scattered spread within the 5-inch square.

Load #3 did the same thing as load #2. I only fired 3 shots but the first 2 were touching each other while the third was a flyer because I just shot it to see if it would produce the same results: unburned powder in the bases, cylinder and barrel.

Why didn't the mag primer ignite all the powder? What's the diagnosis? I think I know but I want to see the opinions before I reveal my thoughts.
 
What's the diagnosis?
Click to expand...

You're using the wrong powder in the wrong amounts. 2400 is much too slow of a powder for sub-1000 fps loads. Go with a faster burn rate powder and you will much happier.

Don
 
First question is...why are you using a mag primer? Second question is......are you using a filler to keep the powder on top of the primer? Third question.....why such a light powder charge?
 
This should answer the questions raised by NSB:

I used a mag primer because my understanding is one should be used with a slow burning powder to assure proper ignition. No, I did not use filler as none was mentioned in the Hornady handbook.

As stated above, "I used the Hornady Handbook, 4th Edition:"
I was only following one of the recommended loads, looking for a velocity under 1000 fps.

The question was: why did not all of the powder ignite? One reason given is not enough of the case volume was consumed to keep the powder against the primer (reason for the filler. Any other reasons?
 
As far as I can tell , way to slow of powder for one . 2) Not sure about your crimp but if you don't use a heavy crimp and maybe even if you do . The magnum primer might be pushing the bullet out of the case before the powder gets really going . That is often a cause of poor or none ignition with slow burning powders .
 
Hornady 200 SWC is swaged pure lead, not cast. No crimp groove. Its hard to keep such a soft bullet in the case to build pressure.

A faster powder like Unique would be better suited to your load.

The first load worked because its a heavier bullet AND its jacketed, so the force to get it going is more. It also has a cannelure to crimp in. These help hold the bullet in place to build pressure with 2400.

I have a 45 colt revolver. Unique seems to be the perfect powder for it. Generally they shoot 250 or 255 grain bullets. Its part of their charm.

David
 
Magnum primers aren't dedicated to slow burning powders, they're for the ignition of certain types of powders. Example: WW296/H110 has a coating on it that requires a hotter flame to ignite. Follow the manufacturers advice on primers and you'll be further ahead if you're not a very experienced reloader. David R gave you some excellent advice. He's a very experienced reloader and shooter and if a source of good info.
 
I used a mag primer because my understanding is one should be used with a slow burning powder to assure proper ignition. No, I did not use filler as none was mentioned in the Hornady handbook.
Click to expand...

Use of a magnum primer is more determined by the specific powder being used than anything else. 2400 does not require a magnum primer.

As stated above, "I used the Hornady Handbook, 4th Edition:"
I was only following one of the recommended loads, looking for a velocity under 1000 fps.
Click to expand...

Just because a reloading manual lists a load, doesn't mean they "recommend" it. It simply means they or someone tested it and it was safe. 2400 is a powder that is typically used in heavier load weights for higher velocity loads than what you are looking for. Small amounts of slow burning powders will give inconsistent results. There are MUCH better powders out there for what you are trying to do.

Don
 
The first load fired with nothing unexpected but sooty cases and evidence of unburned powder granules. 5- shot Group was all in a 4-inch square at 25 yards
Click to expand...

My thoughts are that that load should work unless you have a really big house.
 
These are all great responses, typifying the advantages of participating in the Firing Line, because even though I have reloaded for 43 years, I always learn something. Metal God's explanation of the mag primer pushing the bullet out of the case is an example, as well as primer need with 2400.

Re: crimps, all loads were crimped even though the Hornady bullet does not have a groove. The All American cast does have one, and that might explain the better accuracy on at least the first 2 shots, compared to Hornady.

BUT: what I was interested in, and wanted to wait for, was any opinion about what part might have been played by the gun itself. My focus was on the jump distance the bullet must move before meeting resistance.

My 3" Judge cylinder is 3.10" in total length. The XTP bullet tip to cylinder end is 1.571" before it exits to enter the forcing cone, and my measurement reveals that bullet jumps 1.951" before it meets any resistance. I was thinking that contributed to the failure of the powder to burn completely, and I did assume I needed a faster powder.

I should also note I mentioned it was a 3" barrel, which is a small distance to travel with whatever pressure was available, although this may have more to do with velocity than time to burn the powder-?
 
"...swaged pure lead, not cast..." Swaged and cast use the same data. That 13.5 grains of 2400 is the Start load for a jacketed 200 too. 13.7 is the Start for a cast bullet. Won't matter either way though.
"...should be used with a slow burning powder..." Nope. You do not need magnum primers for 2400. Only thing that'd happen is you might see slightly higher pressures. However, magnum primers are for lighting hard to ignite powders and extreme cold weather shooting. You do not need 'em unless your manual says to use 'em.
They have nothing at all to do with magnum named cartridges either. Despite Hodgdon's site showing then used for stuff like .357 Mag with some powders. They also show the same powders used in non-magnum cartridges with standard primers.
"...made a "pphhttt"..." Could be anything. One possibility is a slightly blocked primer flash hole or slightly damp powder.
You really need to pick one bullet and work up the load instead of 3 bullets at the same time.
 
Cdoc42,

You've likely got a couple of things contributing to the problem. You hit on one of them with the bullet jump issue. The bullet slips down that long throat, expanding the volume the powder is burning in without offering the resistance of the bullet being against the forcing cone and probably leaking bypass gas around it. That is going to deprive the powder of adequate start pressure, so you would probably need a larger charge weight than normal to get a powder as slow as 2400 to begin to burn properly in that gun. I've loaded 2400 in 44 Special before and seen the same effect with lower pressure lead bullet loads (though I was going for even lower velocity than you are; but I had a uch shorter jump.)

A second problem may be the magnum primer. I've seen situations in which, despite the higher contribution they make to start pressure, pressure and velocity were actually reduced with them. This appears to be due to the higher start pressure unseating the bullet before the powder burn is fully established, thus preventing the powder ever getting to start burning in the volume it was meant to start in. That prevents the expected peak pressure from being reached. Soft lubricated lead bullets are particularly vulnerable to primer unseating.
 
Just because a .45 Colt and .410 can fit into the same cylinder and fire doesn't mean it's a great idea. .410 shells are much longer than .45 Colt. This could be contributing to neck tension problems. Trying to crimp a bullet with out a crimp groove can lead to problems if too much crimp is used. Some times bullets are slightly smaller then expected and don't have good neck tension to begin with.

Powder can get contaminated and cause ignition problems. Primers can get contaminated and cause ignition problems
 
If it were me I would first try another powder like AA5 or AA7. 2400 did not do very well for me in any lighter loads across several calibers. I quit using it, and switched to AA7 and AA9 to fill any spot that 2400 covered. Both give me better accuracy,and shoot cleaner.
 
My first thought was that if the recipe did not call for a magnum primer, then it could well have an unintended side affect.

Horandy is now edition 10. Powders have changed as have bullets.

Unless you have edition 4 components (powder, bullets, primers), better to go with the current data.

I am not against using the old additions for ref and even possible use (experimenting) but knowing also its not going to be the same.
 
You might want to pick up a newer Hornady Handbook edition , the #8 I'm looking at no longer shows ANY loads in 45 Colt / 250 gr. HP - XTP with 2400 powder.
The slowest powder shown is AA#5...
Over time , new powders are developed and old loads that were marginal at best , like 13.3 grains of 2400, get revised .
I've been working with AA#5 lately and am very pleased with it , try this one in the 45 Colt , I believe it will do what you want . Accurate has data on their web site load data center also .
Gary
 
Well, I went to the range today after reloading with what powder I had on hand, which was Unique, as mentioned above, and CCI 300 primers. My target was the same those used in pistol competition - a square "head" and the remainder in torso. I was looking for a home defense load for my 3" Judge.

The target "head" measured 6.5 x 6.5" with an insert measuring 4x5"
The vitals area on the torso measured 6x 7"

I loaded 9.5gr of Unique for both American Arms cast 200gr bullets and 200gr Hornady XTP.

At 7 yards all 8 rounds fired (4 of each) were in the 6x 7 area

The plan was a first shot at the head with the shotgun load.

At 7 yards a standard 2-1/2 inch, 7/16 oz load of #4 put 12 pellets in the 4x 5 insert and 23 in the toal 6.5x6.5 area.

Using a 3" round with 11/16oz of #4, TWO shots put 5 pellets in the 4x5 insert and 10 in the 6.5x6.5 area (!!)

Using a Winchester PDX1 410 Defender load with 4 discs and 12 plated BB's, 3 discs cut the top of the 6.5x6.5 area (#4=?), 2 of the BBs were in the 4x5 area and 4 were in the 6.5x6.5 total head area.

Soit seems the best load for my needs is a standard 2-1/2", 7/16-oz load of #4 with either the 200gr Hornady XTP or AA 200gr bullet with 9.5gr of Unique.

The only thing unusual was the cases were totally filthy -lots of soot.
 
Unique is much better suited for your Judge. Ignore the sooty cases, Unique is noted for it.

Don
 
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