What's the big deal?

K

K80Geoff

New member
Ok, I am going to leave myself open to being flamed big time, and probably tarred, feathered and hung in effigy but I just have to say this...

WHO CARES IF THEY DO NICS CHECKS AT GUNSHOWS!

This is a Red Herring for the HCI people, "gun bazarrs where criminals can buy any gun they want with ease". The anti gun crowd is using this like we used "Remember Pearl Harbor" during the second world war. The NRA is expending capital trying to stop the three day approval when most of us will be approved immediately under NICS. Fully 95% of the NICS checks go through quickly, the two I went through last month were approved before I finished the yellow form (forgot the number).

When the congress voted down the bill we lost some potentially important provisions, such as the reciprocity provision for LEO's

Now we have Al Gore declaring that guns will be an issue in the next Presidential election, we have Celebrities trying to jump start their careers by turning in guns and writing letters. We have the Media propaganda mills constantly feeding lies to half wit sheeple who believe what they are fed. We have the female liberal congresscritters banding together in a crusade that is noticed and commented on by the talking heads on the news. Heard one of them say that a law that prohibits guns in homes with children would be a good idea! Etc Etc... on and on.

I know how most of you feel, but all this publicity is not good for our cause. Prior to Columbine there was a good possibility of making real gains in CCW throughout the country, now the cowards in the government won't touch this issue. The lawsuits by cities against the gunmakers would have dragged on, now more cities are signing on.

What good is winning a battle if the tide of war turns against us.

I say give up the gunshow issue, it is not worth it.

OK, on with the nomex.
 
Fair question. Here is my take on it.

Just this past week, one of our more liberal Arizona columnists wrote that there is another 'loophole' we need to close. Classified ads. He called the Denver Post, and asked how they can still accept classified advertising for firearms, when their editorial page clearly denounces gun ownership.

The gun show 'loophole' is just one of a series of 'loopholes'. Of course, it is not a loophole - it is an existing civil right. But to the anti-self defense lobby, it is just the next target in their sights.

They will not stop with gun shows. They will almost immediately turn to all private sales. Then, they will move to total registration. Who cares? Well, if I could trust them, I wouldn't. But history and current events make it clear we cannot trust them. Whether it is the Serbs taking Kosovar weapons, Hitler taking German weapons, or the California Attorney General taking Californian weapons (please see http://www.sksbuyback.org/ ), it is always the same story.

Paranoid? Well, paranoia is an unreasonable fear. Is it an unreasonable fear if it is happening in the state next to mine? Is it unreasonable if it is happening to a firearm I don't currently own? IMHO, no. It is not an unreasonable fear - it is simply comprehension of history, current events and human nature. They certainly intend to get to me and you, and to get to whatever firearms we own. Witness Britain and Australia.

Therefore, the gun show 'loophole' is important. This camel isn't trying to get his nose into the tent. He's trying to eat the whole damn village!

No compromise. Not now. Not ever. The anti-self defense crowd cannot be trusted, and we can no longer compromise. If they want to compromise, let's see what they want to give up first. I assure you, they have no interest in giving up anything.
 
You're right. And we should quit trying to defend assault weapons, they're bad for publicity, and nobody needs them, anyway.

While we're at it, to look good for the cameras, let's give up on handguns. I mean, their only purpose is to kill people. It's bad for business. We can't be armed against each other, it isn't civilized.

And these sniper rifles the bambi killers use are really deadly. I heard that a psycho with one of those could kill a child from 200 yards away! Clearly, these are far too deadly for anyone but FBI HRT teams and other federal agents.

Oops, almost forgot shotguns, the weapon that did virtually all the killing in Littleton. Obviously, no one can be in favor of those street sweepers, those smooth-bored alley clearers, heck, you don't even have to aim with one of those! You just point in the general direction. Way too nasty.

OK, now, what does that leave us?

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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
 
This whole gunshow loophole thing is a smokescreen. Licensed dealers at gunshows already have to do NICS checks. So, what are they after? Private sales, of course. We all know that all gunshows have sellers who are not licensed dealers, just collectors looking to buy or sell a few. It's not their primary source of income, so it's legal. And then there are the folks who are visitors and brought a gun they want to sell. So what if they sell to another visitor?
The goal here is to stop all private sales at gunshows. The logical next step is to ban all private sales period. Which leads to registration of all sales and ultimately confiscation.
Yes, it is a big deal. No compromise.
 
that pump shotgun could hold 8 rounds of ammo with each round holding 15, 22 caliber pellets! You don't have to aim these guns!
Who needs a gun that holds over 100 bullets?!

I need a 50 cal!
i hear they are effective camel control arms!
wink.gif

dZ
 
You are missing the point, the whole argument was over the amount of time the FBI would have to check up on someone who did not pass the NICS check. Most people pass the check without a problem. If I went to a gunshow and did not pass the check I would either drop the sale or make arrangements with the dealer to pick up the gun when the check went through.

The NRA fought a battle on ground of the enemys choosing. The administration has the advantage and the propaganda machine to really do damage to the 2nd Amendment.

We already lost the battle when the law was drafted to require checks for everyone at the shows, the fight over the number of days for NICS refusals has done nothing to help our cause.

I don't think this was worth the fight. It has been pointed out elsewhere that HCI and their buddies want the laws to fail so that they can push for more restrictions and eventual confiscation. I believe this fiasco fit right into their agenda.
 
"Instant background checks" equals instant registration...with only one purpose, target lists for confiscation. Doesn't matter if it's against the law to keep such records, they're already doing it. I know for a fact that BATF has photocopied dealer records, a violation of the law. But, as one dealer put it "They've got the badges and guns, what are you going to do?".

You would have to be very naive to believe that they are not keeping all that nice collected data. It's been done that way in England and Austrailia, and even here in New York and California.

So now we have the NRA lobbying FOR gun control "lite", and the rabid anti's voting it down...and calling it a victory for the NRA. I'm getting just a mite bit confused...
 
If we don't stand on principle, who will? You, K80Geoff, are missing the point. If we agree to compromise on this, then we agree with the victim disarmers (brownshirts) that the gov't can infringe on the right to keep and bear arms.

Of course they want, and expect, these laws to fail. That is precisely why the dept of justice doesn't prosecute gun crimes under Clinton/Reno. Why give them more rope to hang us with? "Oh, we tried that little gun show instant background check, but it didn't stop any wacked-out nutbars from killing people. Looks like we'll have to go a step further; it's reasonable to ban private sales entirely."

The NICS is unconstitutional. Full stop.
Any "waiting period" is unconstitutional.
As long as gun owners play along, as long as the NRA is the largest gun control organization in the U.S., our rights guaranteed under the 2nd amendment will continue to erode.

This cannot continue indefinitely, for sooner or later, our right to keep and bear arms will be gone, along with certain other inalienable rights.

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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
 
K80Geoff, I'd respectfully suggest that you look a bit deeper into this.

First, note the result. As I understand it, at this point the House has completely eliminated gun control provisions from their Juvenile Justice Bill. If I'm wrong on that, I am sure they have completely dropped the gun show provisions. Whichever it is, this is obviously better than the fiasco in the Senate.

The anti-self defense lobby said they couldn't live with a 24 hour wait - they insisted upon 72 hours. By a hair, the House went for the 24 hour wait. Because they didn't get exactly what they wanted, the anti's went along with dumping the whole idea. Some wags feel that the 24 hour wait was introduced in order to allow some Rep's to look like they were ready to accept some 'reasonable' reform. But, they also knew it would either not work or the anti's would not accept it.

I'm not involved enough in politics to know the truth - perhaps we have someone here who can add more light to this intrigue. OTOH, maybe that is best done in personal conversation or email.

I will say this - last week I took a Senator's aide to lunch in order to discuss these issues. She said there is tremendous pressure on this issue right now, so the Senators and Rep's are essentially trying to calm the waters by allowing some 'reasonable' changes. I told her how dangerous that course is, and how unacceptable. That we need strong leaders that can tell people the truth instead of constantly going along with the feeling of the moment. Having said that, I can also recognize that politics is a bit like chess, and the various machinations and jousts may not be logical to those outside the Beltway. As I recall, it was a quaint German expression that there were two things people should never see being made - sausage and politics.

I don't mean this as an intellectual copout. I do mean that I am watching with great interest, and if we end up where I hope we end up I'll be the wiser. If we don't, I'm doing my best to ask the hard questions, and I'll be sending letters and making phone calls.

To conclude, HCI and their cronies are going to misrepresent, lie, obfuscate, and push for more and more draconian laws no matter what happens. They nearly rub their hands in glee when shooting massacres occur [as a matter of fact, if it is true that an HCI member's son sold the TEC-9 (later model) to the bad boys in Columbine, I'd like to see that investigated].

What needs to happen now is for anyone believing in the RKBA to contribute funds to their favorite RKBA organization, write letters to editors and politicians, talk to friends and introduce them to firearms, write articles, make sure our families understand the issues and on and on. We are in a war here. The anti-self defense lobby is strong as hell, and they're pushing all the time. They are bringing others into their fold, including companies and seemingly unrelated charities such as children / family groups. We must do the same by countering their lies at every turn. Every turn.

K80Geoff, what would you have preferred? That we simply accept the lie of 'closing the gun show loophole'?
 
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