What's the beef with Ayoob?, Part II

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Shawn Dodson

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Personally, I've learned a lot from Ayoob. But there are a few things he's said and done that I take issue with. A few of these are:

Stressfire II, Page 12: The San Jose PD shooting - Ayoob claims a stray single 00 buckshot pellet severed the abdominal aorta of SJPD officer Gordon Silva. Dr. Richard Mason, Forensic Pathologist from San Jose worked on this case and disputes Ayoob's "facts." Ayoob failed to mention that the pellet that killed Silva was a richochet. Ayoob also didn't mention there were two officers firing shotguns - one was 20 yards away, the other was 70+ yards away. The police are not sure from which shotgun the fatal pellet came. Lastly, the pellet damaged Silva's vena cava, not the aorta as stated by Ayoob.

Handguns magazine, Feb 93, p. 87: What group at McGill University School of Medicine did Ayoob lecture on gunshot wound dynamics, and when? He implies he instructed physicians (presumably emergency room physicians and surgeons - the only ones with any responsibility for treating gunshot wounds) about "gunshot wound dynamics." Is this true, or just another audacious, self-aggrandizing and self-promoting claim by Ayoob?

In several articles, Ayoob incorrectly describes the "epidermis" as being the stretchy body organ that limits bullet overpenetration. The epidermis is the dead, outermost layer of the skin; it is a few cells thick and possesses no elasticity. The inner layer of the skin, that in most parts of the body is thick (over 1/8" on the back), tough and elastic is called the dermis. Looks like "Doctor" Ayoob needs to go back to medical school.

"Doctor" Ayoob apparently feels the opinions of Dr. Barnhart and Dr. Davis, the medical examiners who performed the autopsies on Michael Platt and William Matix, are incorrect. In his 1989 American handgunner magazine article, "Doctor" Ayoob condemns the idea that a more deeply penetrating bullet would have ended the FBI-Miami shootout sooner as "errant horse manure." So, according to "Doctor" Ayoob, a bullet that penetrates or passes through the heart will have no greater effect than a bullet that penetrates lung only.

In 1981, Ayoob testified against the FBI in a lawsuit on discrimination against women. One of the items claimed, which Ayoob supported, was that the FBI issue medium frame S&W revolver was unsuitable for female agents. John Hall, chief of the FBI-FTU, cross examined Ayoob and had him read one of his articles, "Defense Handguns for Women," (Guns magazine, March 1979, P. 67) in which Ayoob had recommended the K frame S&W revolver as "the ideal weapon for women." This is the very gun he testified was unsuitable.
Ayoob's offer to testify for any of his students is best left unaccepted. Even if you are right, having one of your "expert witnesses" discredited on cross-examination could doom you. Ayoob's past errors in writing and courtroom testimony will follow him forever, and will be exploited by opposing counsel who has knowledge of Ayoob's errors and flawed professional ethics.

When Ayoob talks gun handling techniques and personal defense tactics I pay attention. As I stated earlier, I've learned a lot from this man. But, when he strays into other areas in which I feel his expertise is questionable (legal, medical, statistics, etc.), I regard what he has to say as being more entertainment than informative.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com

[This message has been edited by Shawn Dodson (edited February 19, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Shawn Dodson (edited February 19, 2000).]
 
Moved to the General Discussion forum. Look for it there....

[This message has been edited by Mal H (edited February 19, 2000).]
 
Muscles,

Ayoob has a lot of fun talking about
his middle eastern heritage; and his
size. He is not a large man.
He says he hasn't yet got up the nerve
to fly with a gun on Luftansa airlines.
He says he gets a few stares considering
his name and his New England accent!

As for us middle-aged guys and shooting
schools.
I attend them. Shooting is my hobby.
I regard it much the same as others who
attend golf clinics. It's part of the
enjoyment. It affords me the opportunity
to improve my skills.
Nothing more or less than that.
 
Shawn-

Stressfire II, Page 12: The San Jose PD shooting...

If he is misinformed on something, you could be polite and point it out to him by writing him a letter. That would be appreciated.

Handguns magazine, Feb 93, p. 87:...

Looking for answers is good. Let us know if you find the answer.

Ayoob incorrectly describes the "epidermis"...

He's not a doctor. If he's in error, politely point it out to him.

"Doctor" Ayoob apparently feels the opinions of Dr. Barnhart and Dr. Davis...

So what was his reasoning? Ayoob may have observed that a punctured heart does not mean immediate stoppage, and the perp may have still pulled off the same kills before lack of bloodflow stopped him.

In 1981, Ayoob testified against the FBI in a lawsuit on discrimination against women....

Again, what was his reasoning? Maybe something made him change his mind in two years; maybe the gun was suitable for civilians, but certain issues made it less preferable for professional gunwomen. And don't forget that lawyers are very good at twisting the truth; just because some lawyer supposedly discredited him once doesn't mean that he's completely unworthy ever again.

At least you've come up with something more concrete than vague snide remarks, which constitute most of the criticisms. I'd like to see more detail to back up your brief comments. It's also good to know that you've actually learned something from him.
 
PlusP,

I've talked to Ayoob about getting him on-line. I've spent time with him and seen how he operates. I've seen his computer setup. I've done computer support and written plenty of software.

Trust me, it's NOT worthwhile (both in time and in learning curve) to get him on-line and sift thru 2000+ messages per day on multiple forums just so he can answer the miniscule number of intelligent criticisms.

If you have a real criticsm, WRITE HIM A LETTER or go visit him. Don't just sit there and wonder why he doens't come to you so you can criticize him.
 
I think Massad Ayoob has the best "common sense" approach to tactics and traing. I understand that he is a nationally recognized trainer for ASLET. It seems like most of the attacks on him are rather petty.
I don't feel that it is fair (or very professional) to criticize someones honesty or ability without anything to back it up. Or their chance to defend themselves.


Some people criticize that he is a part time cop in a small New England town. Gee, does that make him any less of an officer than anyone else? Those remarks just stink of snobbery. I've been reading Mr. Ayoob for over 20 years and I feel he has always backed up what he says and admits when he was wrong. No, I don't agree with everything he says, but he is found to be more often right, than wrong.

A prominent Miami attorney was quoted as saying "Ayoob is popular with the thinking mans handgunner. Not the macho types." That may explain alot.

Love him or hate him, the man deserves are respect for the contributions he has made to the firearms industry the last 25 years. Kudos to you Mr. Ayoob!

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Knee deep in brass, still shootin fast!
 
ctdonath:

I believe Ayoob has been very much aware of these discrepancies since Feb. 1993. If I'm not mistaken, they were presented to him in writing.

As for more information, I've listed references in many of my "beef's." If you're that interested, you can research them and determine for yourself whether or not I've taken things out of context (or maybe I've misinterpreted what he meant).

These are my "beef's" and I'm not out to convince you, or anybody else for that matter, that there's something wrong with Ayoob. Someone started this thread with this question, and I participated with what I know personally and my opinions. These are just a few discrepancies that I'm aware of that affect Ayoob's prestige in the professional law enforcement/wound ballistics communities.

Some people love Ayoob, others despise him. I regard him as being very knowledgeable about personal defense shooting techniques. He's a very good trainer and talented entertainer. Undoubtedly, the information he's presented has saved the lives of good people.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com



[This message has been edited by Shawn Dodson (edited February 19, 2000).]
 
"To me all these "Thunderanches" and "tactical RII" blah blah blah are nothing more than fantasy camps for old babyboomers getting in touch with their inner child. Soldier boy wannabes or rehashers....If a prosecuter ever found out you attended Ayoob or whoevers "tactical" class, your going down big time."

Well, that's a pretty good rant :)

Do you base that statement on anything other than your personal beliefs or are you just trolling for suckers like me to comment?

After applying for our Florida CCWs, my attorney advised my wife and myself to seek out and document professional training in case we ever did end up in court. I thought it was pretty sensible advice.
 
If I don't like what someone has to say, I ignore them. No fuss, no muss. But if anyone could shed some light on him I think it'd be great. I've heard some very negative things, I don't know if they're true or not.
 
<<I didn't ask whether the guy had a "towel on his head" der hee-hee, or used a magic marker to make dots on his forehead ect. ect. . Thats just plain ol' racist.>>

And slightly confusing. While my family and I are occasionally known to don dishrags as headgear (checkered tablecloths work nicely as well), Arabs don't do the dot thing. That's for Hindu folks.

BTW, I'd like to note that my response to Muscles was meant in fun, not as an indignant "you-bad-bad-man" PC backlash. I realized later that someone might think "Back at'cha, habibi" was some kind of fleas-of-a-thousand-camels hex. "Habibi" actually means "baby" or "sweetie" in Arabic and in context means hey, no hard feelings. ;)

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*quack*
 
I just wanted to check in and let everyone who has replyed to this post that I've been following everyones comments with great interest. Oh, by the way,I'm the guy who asked the question about Ayoob to begin with.I'd have to say that I haven't seen anything said that would make me want to stop reading him. I'm astonished at how much energy folks have about this man. Very few neutral responses. That being said...
Anyone have anything to say about the significance or lack thereof regarding Ayoob
having won The Handgunner of The Year Award
last year?

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Thats ok Duckhunt. Next time I want to extrapolate the witticisms of a pc racist, I'll make sure to consult you first. Maybe cedarhead or tabouli toes would of been more appropriate ? I'm not well versed in Farsi, but I'll try and think of something better.

[This message has been edited by MusclesMcGee (edited February 20, 2000).]
 
I was a bit confused for a moment until I realized I missed the last few posts of the last thread. I went back and read them over. Muscles, you have email.
 
I thought I read on here ayoob was computer illiterate and then I read he's a computer whiz. I'm baffled. Now I read he doesn't have the time to address his critics. Good EXCUSES. Sounds like the old high school bully that shouts taunts from an upper floor apartment in a locked building.
Write a letter or email or board posts. All need to be read and can be read at the recipients LIESURE. Good lord, how far to we defend the indefenseable?
 
Listen up...
McGee may have phrased his question about the derivation of Ayoob's name indelicately. Some commented on it and McGee clarified himself. That should have been the end of it....now he is being dogpiled. Enough already and let it go.

Remember the medium we are dealing with...you can't see expressions, you can't hear tone of voice.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
I thought I read on here ayoob was computer illiterate and then I read he's a computer whiz.

Don't see where the "whiz" part appeared. There is a group of computers in his office, yes, but that doesn't mean that he's particularly good at using them (quite the contrary in fact).

Now I read he doesn't have the time to address his critics.

Uh, yeah. As I keep mentioning, there's some TWO THOUSAND PLUS messages posted on high-profile gun groups PER DAY (that's approaching a million messages a year). Buried within those are a few criticisms of him. Within those, most are whiny out-of-context misquotes or baseless "I don't like him" jabs. The very few that are left observe either genuine mistakes (he's not a god), or amount to professional differences of opinion (normal).

Good EXCUSES.

Well, what do you actually expect? Do you really want him to come search out your preferred forums and look for your complaints?

Tell us what you want him to do as a professional.

Sounds like the old high school bully that shouts taunts from an upper floor apartment in a locked building.

Oh, come on. You can do much better than that. He writes his articles and publishes them; if you want to complain, WRITE HIM.

Write a letter or email or board posts. All need to be read and can be read at the recipients LIESURE.

Yeah...what's so hard or bad about that?

Good lord, how far to we defend the indefenseable?

What's so indefenseable?

I'll ask you for the Nth time: what is _actually_wrong_ with what he teaches?
 
I took a shortened, LFI I course from Massad last year, following the SAF Gun Rights Policy Conference. I enjoyed the course, learned from it, and found Massad to be an interesting fellow.

I'm sure he's not perfect, but I don't expect perfection from any instructor. He is a prolific writer, and a very confident guy. Both of those characteristics are bound to lead to a few mistakes.

I will say this - it was clear to me that Mr. Ayoob is a very strong supporter of the RKBA, and absolutely believes that honest citizens have a right and an obligation to defend themselves. That scores a lot of points in my book. I am glad he is among us, and I appreciate his message.

Regards from AZ
 
How do you guys know Massad isnt a TFL member? I would think most folks have the ability to tackle a computer...
But thats beside the point - what does that have to do with shooting?

I read Massad's writing when it looks interesting. His Ayoob Files is worth reading. Interesting cases that you can learn something from. Some of his other writings are quite good as well. Others are not that interesting.
Take him or leave him - he is on our side.
Even Chuck Taylor is on our side...

Lets not exclude anyone anymore okay?

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I mean, if I went around saying I was an Emperor because some
moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away!
 
Your right Jefflekins, that was a pretty good rant. It happens sometimes when I put on Johnny Cash :) . Don't take it personally (or seriously).

DC, thanks for the backup. I agree the topic is dead.

[This message has been edited by MusclesMcGee (edited February 21, 2000).]
 
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