What's all this about Remington SGs?

DesertRat

New member
Jeez,

I stop frequenting TFL for a while and come back to my favorite SG forum and read all these horror stories about Remington's latest shotgun production. Loose / wobbly trigger groups on 11-87s, 3 out of 10 870s shipped back by those who specialize in customizing them and all other manner of problems.

What the heck is big green doing? Do they simply not care about quality anymore? :barf: This is depressing coming from home of the best pump gun ever. What's with these American gunmakers? Looks like if I want another 870 to accompany my 11-87, I'll have to go to Wilson's or buy a Benelli :mad:
 
You mean to tell me that firearms are mechanical devices and can all fail???:confused: And those that manufacture the most will have some problems on certain weapons or production runs?

But I thought if I bought the right brand, like Brand X, I would have the Magic Sword of the Gunshop Commando and not have to worry about mal drills or transitions or any kind of training because my gun would be magic.
 
KSFreeman,

I made no mention of training of which I have PLENTY. I'm talking about the quality control or lack thereof at Remington these days.
 
Whatever the screw up % is, there will be more bad Brand Xs as the production numbers go up. Pick a weapon, make sure it works, go to skul, then buy 3 more of that weapon. If the gun is junk it will not sell.
 
Seems to me that in the very recent past, Remington contracted to buy four million dollars worth of parts from.........Smith n Wesson.

Nah, couldn't have any bearing on the quality.

Sam
 
A coupla things...

Big Green has made around 8 million 870s since they started in 1950. Doubtless, some were better made than others. Newer ones have sloppier tolerances, more machining marks left, and while Rembrass insists that all parts interchange within gauge, reality shows they do not in some cases.

PC #@$%^* like the locking safety, the mag dimples, and the fact that Remington LIES about why they did these kinda rankles.

Big Green also has been bought by a conglomerate.
Like S&W, they've switched from quality to quantity, to improve that accursed bottom line, and QC has dropped like a paralysed falcon.

So, take your business elsewhere, to the toughest competitor of new Remington products. That, of course, is old Remington Products. With 8 million 870s out there, there's some terrific shotguns available for less than new and better built to boot. MAybe BG will heed the message.

Meanwhile, as soon as money improves, I'm picking up a few more 870s, and NONE of them will be new issue...
 
Bought a new 20 Gauge 1100 a couple of months ago and it works perfect and looks perfect.I added a choate magazine extension and a Tac-Star sidesaddle and a Hi-Viz fiber optic front sight.This makes a very good home defense shotgun or it is also great to use in tactial shotgun matches.I also have an older 870 that works and looks perfect.If I need another shotgun I will look at Remington first.BILLG
 
C.R. Sam---do you have any proof that Remington contracted with S&W to buy parts specifically for the Remington 870? And do you have any proof that it is these parts that cause specific problems with Remington shotguns that are directly tracable to Quality Control of those specific parts? Do you have any evidence that S&W has quality control issues of their own that exceed that of other firearms manufacturers? Without this evidence, one can say anything one wants and it holds absolutely no truth.
 
As an 870 fan, I would like to ask a favor to go along with Dave McC's post.
After you buy your used 870, (or, gasp, some other shotgun :) ), please send Remington a note to tell them what you did and why you did it.
If we keep our dissatisfaction a secret, nothing will be done about it.
Please do not whine about it on the boards if you are not doing anything to help.
Thanks,
Mike
 
I have a new Remington 870 Magnum Express. It has the lock safety, dimples, and all. It works fine. I like my Winchester 1300 better because I think the 1300 action is smoother and faster. However, since I'll be using the 870 to hunt with, I don't really care about the dimples in the mag tube. I thought about removing them, but why bother? I'm using my 1300 as a home defense gun and the 870 as a hunting arm and for all-around target shooting. By the way, I also have a new S&W revolver. It's one of my most accurate handguns and it works fine.

Now, when we're talking about the "bottom line"-----you got that right. Businesses are in business to make money. Not to lose money. Now, when we're talking about safety locks, we must ask ourselves one question: "Why are they in place?" It's easy for us as non-shareholders or corporate officers in those companies to question their motives. We don't have a financial interest in those companies, though some like to back-seat drive their decisions. Now, back to the question. Why are companies doing more in the line of "safety"? Because we have a species of predator in this country called "lawyers." How many times have companies been sued because of something they really had no control over? You really think circular saw blades have a warning not to try and stop them with your fingers because they thought you might? They did it because someone actually did it and sued and won because there was no warning NOT to do that. How about air bags in cars? Who said, "Hey, wait a minute!" about those? No one. Automakers had to bow to increasing consumer "rights" groups and government officials to start making autos with airbags to stop the "preventable carnage" on our highways due to Detoit's "negligence" in not installing airbags. Yeah, no one complained then until a few infants got decapitated by airbags. Then the blame fell on the automakers again. They couldn't win for losing. And who here raised hell when lawyers and the gvernment went after the tobacco manufacturers and set the precedent for suing the gunmakers later? The gunmakers want to reduce the most risks they can that are associated with their products to try and avoid lawsuits. It's that simple. If they have locks on the guns, they can avoid the liberal media endline after stories about kids who find dad's gun and shoot themselves: "...and the gun didn't have a trigger lock..." The gunmakers want to stay in business and make money. They're not there to lose money. They lose more through one big lawsuit than from the customers they might lose through trigger locks.


The answer is not to blame Remington or S&W. You want someone to blame? How about the voters who vote in these whiny POS that take "safety" as a crusade? How about people that want the government to be the parent and tell us not to do such-and-such because we might put our eyes out? And then go on to mandate that through law? People need to pull the government's teat out of their mouths and start acting (and start demanding to be treated) like adults who take responsibility for their own actions. Don't blame companies who have to tread water to stay in business thanks to the overprotective quasi-parents we've been electing to public office since 1970. It's not their fault that the mantra of "...it's for the children..." has excused every tyrannical act from exhorbitant sales taxes on tobacco, alcohol, and soda pop to bans on "bad" guns to mandatory trigger locks. "It's for the children..." Yeah, like treating all adults like children. And if Americans feel they need to actually be TOLD by the government that they can't eat "junk food" or smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol or own weapons, then maybe those thralls don't deserve to be free until they pull their collective heads out of their posteriors and start acting like adults. Free men take responsibility for themselves.
 
One more thing. I've been (and still am) a warranty repairman for some major manufacturers of electrical appliances for over ten years now. You want to talk "pee poor quality"? You ain't seen anything! The quality of the major firearms manufacturers is worlds above the "quality" that goes into products you buy and use every day. I know of some major appliance manufacturers whose warranty repair failure rate is 30%. That's almost one-third of all their products. I'll take the quality of Remington or S&W any day over the week over the quality of some things I've repaired over the last ten years.
 
Bought three appliances when we bought our second home. Maytag fridge, Whirlpool washer, Whirlpool Dryer. The Washer went out within a month, others are still good.

NEVER sent a gun back to manufacturer because of their defect. Have sent a Split stock back to Ruger, a slide release back to Kel-Tec and a magazine release to Intratec. Oh yeah, an SKS that doubled went back to the importer.
 
Remington Quality(DTT)

DTT means "down the tubes" by the way. I have noticed that quality is more of a catch phrase than a reality with alot of companies these days and history will prove this out. Not so many years ago, Detriot was manufacturing cars that could not compete with the Japanese imports and tightened up their quality by making cars that were halfway decent. Now when it comes to firearms, you'll have to pay a pretty penny for a quality gun that will last. I agree that BG has been putting out some dogs lately and in my quest for a decent shotgun, I settled with the fact that if I was going to have a quality shotgun,I would have to find one of the older guns and hope to not be burned to bad on the price. Here in Tidewater,VA we have gunshops that have alot of Rems, Winchester's, etc. and can be had for a decent price if you shop carefully. I've had Mossbergs, Rems, Winchester's, Ithaca automatics,and even a Norinco(Gawd I hate to admit that I had a Norinco!) . I was hoping to save enough nickles to buy a Model 12 but they are prohibitively expensive in the great Virginian marshland. I was prowling and growling in a pawn shop and found an old Hi Standard Field Classic 12 gauge and bought it, took it home, cleaned her up, took her to the range and rattled a few shells thru the tube and simply fell in love with the gun. It fits better than any shotgun I've owned and looks downright respectable. I'm not trying to plug Hi Standards but the quality is evident in the older guns. The 870 is a good example of another shotgun that will last and be drop dead reliable. But, in my humble opinion, that statement applies to earlier manufactured guns only. I had the oppurtunity to handle a 710 bolt action that BG is making and would jump over ten of those monstrosities for one beat up Polish carbine. If you want quality, I'll contend that you have to go back in time and go for an older piece. It is a real thrill to find an older gun of quality.
 
Let it all out, Kevan, don't hold back(G)....

I've two issues with the Keyed safety.

One, it's mandatory. They won't even sell you an old style one to replace it.

Two, some of us have found that the keyed safety can be manipulated to ON, sans key.

So, it's not only a mandatory feature, but a detriment. Bad engineering, worse PC thinking.

And all this litigation is living proof of the Bozo Factor.

"It only takes one clown to #$%^&* it up for everybody".
 
Kevan,

One problem most of us have is that we have products three or four years old that are better than the ones you can buy today. The 870 safety is a good example. The plunge in quality during Colt's last days is another one.

When you then look at a company like Kimber or Kahr, you really get disgusted with the older companies. It's evolution at work, but gun folks are sloooow to change.

Giz
 
And that's what's great about capitalism. If manufacturers don't respond to the needs of their customers, then someone else will. Maybe for less money. Example: why would I pay top dollar for a Colt .45ACP that has a PLASTIC trigger? For the name?

I can't tell you how many products I've seen that were "engineered" through the warranty department. I've know of a couple products that, had they been firearms, would have blown up in the shooter's face considering the "quality" that went into them. All in all, it is a treat to shoot my firearms simply to operate a piece of equipment that does what I want it to. Especially after a week of repairing inexcusable quality control nonexistance and reading the enclosed letters from very unhappy customers.

There are some good points made here. Yes, not just a few, but a LOT of American companies are doing one or all of the following (this is from personal experience and knowledge):

1.) Using the cheapest vendors they can find regardless of the quality of that vendor.

2.) Reducing costs by stocking just enough parts to make their build that week. They call this "J-I-T" ("Just-In-Time") inventory. But what happens is that a vendor gets late and they have no parts to build with. Orders for finished goods start to stack up and by the time the parts arrive they HAVE to use those parts to make the deadline whether the quality is good or not.

3.) Lack of in-house quality control. A lot of manufacturer are having thier vendors do the QC on the parts. This is like letting kids in school grade their own papers.

4.) Doing in-house rework of parts. Say that some parts arrive that don't fit. But, thanks to the "J-I-T" inventory system, you HAVE to make these parts fit. So you have some shleps re-work the parts in-house to fit. The problem with that is that your shleps are not neccessarily qualified to do that work. The vendor knows the tolerances and specs; the average shmo on the factory assembly line doesn't. So, while he might make the parts "fit", they won't last in the long run. (This is probably where your lousy trigger assemblies and rough burrs on what should be smooth surfaces come from.)

5.) Pressure to reduce the overall cost of the units to build. This can be reduction of inspection time, less function testing, cheaper parts, more synthetics (plastic parts or powdered metal parts), and less QC time on incoming parts. (As I said, some companies have eliminated QC altogether and farmed it out to the vendors.)


These are your major reasons why quality is taking a sh*t in America. Take it from the guy who's seen this everyday for the past ten years.
 
The shotgun we bought dates back to 1995 or 1996, so it isn't recent. Despite the wobbly trigger group, it is much nicer than newer Remingtons 1187Ps I've seen in stores. I passed up on one of those because it was MUCH too poorly made.
 
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