What would happen?

S

stargazer65

New member
If you were holding the action release control in "action release" when you squeezed the trigger on a pump action shotgun. Would it slam open and be a hazard, or does something prevent that? I'm assuming a modern gun in proper working condition.

Feel free to poke fun at me I can take it.:D
 
No, it would not slam open, as that is not what locks the bolt. The action bar lock only locks the slide from operating. Locking lug or lugs plural are what locks the bolt closed against the pressure of the firing cartridge.
 
OKay thanks, that answers that.

For a follow-up question on that:
Is it the action of pulling back on the forearm then, that physically unlocks the bolt?




P.S. Thanks for contributing to pump shotgun 101.:o
 
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No, it's the hammer fall that typically "unlocks" the action. It's the motion of the action bar that disengages the bolt stop. Here's a posting I wrote few months ago:

B A S I C S
If you're unsure of what's going on, let's get over how a pump shotgun operates:
Starting with the trigger pull: The hammer falls, the gun fires and the action is unlocked.
Next, the slide is moved rearward (by the shooter) which causes the bolt to disengage and move rearward. The moving bolt causes the spent shell to be removed from the chamber (extraction), throws it out the port (ejection) and resets the hammer (cocking). At this point the slide is at the limit of its travel.
As the shooter returns the slide forward, a fresh shell is released from the magazine and elevated in front of the closing bolt.
The forward moving bolt pushes the fresh shell into the chamber, closes, engages the lug, the slide is locked in the forward position, and the gun is ready to fire with the next pull of the trigger.

With a pump shotgun, the shooter may wish to open the locked action when:

1. There's a freshly fired shell in the chamber as is typical in repeat firing.
2. There's a live round in the chamber and the shooter wants to unload.
3. The gun was closed with an empty chamber.

Only in the first situation will the slide operate. In the other two the slide is locked in place. This is where the release comes into play, it unlocks the action and lets it be opened without first having the hammer fall. Without the release, you can't unload a live round from the chamber!

Some say you can open a shotgun, that was put aside unloaded, by pulling the trigger to unlock the action. I caution against this -- safe gun handling practices require a gun with a closed action be treated as loaded. Use the release in this situation. Get to know and love your action release.

[SIZE=-2]Note: To avoid confusion, I've not complicated things by including the function of the disconnector. Most shooters are unaware of its operation.[/SIZE]​
__________________
 
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Thank that helps a lot Zippy, but now I'm missing one key understanding:

Starting with the trigger pull: The hammer falls, the gun fires and the action is unlocked.Next, the slide is moved rearward (by the shooter) which causes the bolt to disengage and move rearward.
Click to expand...

(emphasis mine)

Could you accidentally during the split second firing, when the action is unlocked move the forearm back slightly, disengaging the bolt, and causing it to be blown backwards by the recoil (and causing harm or damage), or is that mechanically impossible?
 
I've never had that happen. I usually hold back slightly on the slide to a little bit faster running the action.

Evan
 
Interesting question...

I'm thinking that with SOME older shotguns what you're describing might actually be possible...

I'm thinking that with my Winchester 1200 pump, though, that it has a catch on it that specifically prevents the action from unlocking until the slide is actually pushed a tiny bit forward.

I need to get my S&W and my Ithaca out and do a little experimenting. Unloaded, of course.

My Winchester is, unfortunately, in Pennsylvania at Mom's, so that's out for awhile.
 
It's virtually impossible (if the gun is functioning properly) unless you try something like Super Dave is asking about in a parallel thread. If you circumvent the dissconnector and/or action lock you may trick the hammer into falling when the bolt isn't secured. It's not a wise practice if you're happy with your present finger count.

Basically, the disconnector's purpose is to require the full release of the trigger between shots. And, the action lock requires the bolt to be locked before the hammer can fall. In some early shotguns, you could hold the trigger back and shuck the cob as fast as you could -- and, the gun would fire with each stroke. Some folks want their modern guns to function in a like manner.

Problems arise because the trigger parts may not each function discreetly, but are part of an integrated system. And, manufacturers' designs differ to comply with patent restrictions -- what may seen like a simple way to defeat the disconnector may also defeat (miss-time) the action lock.
 
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I'm curious...

what exactly are you guys trying to figure out? The above mentioned other thread is about slam-firing a pump, possible with older guns but realistically, not all that useful.

If this is simply a question about mechanics of a pump shotgun, then I apologize, but it almost seems folks are trying to turn a pump into an automatic of sorts for some reason.
 
what exactly are you guys trying to figure out? The above mentioned other thread is about slam-firing a pump, possible with older guns but realistically, not all that useful.

If this is simply a question about mechanics of a pump shotgun, then I apologize, but it almost seems folks are trying to turn a pump into an automatic of sorts for some reason.
Click to expand...

Not here Dr., this is pump shotgun 101. ;) I'm just trying to understand how the mechanics of the pump shotgun make it safe (for proper use). I just have to digest what Zippy is saying right now.
 
As the shooter returns the slide forward, a fresh shell is released from the magazine and elevated in front of the closing bolt.
Click to expand...

Ah Jeez, my 870's (all four) are defective. Dang shells pop out of the mag. on the REARWARD operation of the slide. :D
 
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HeHe Nnobby...you wiseacre...

So I think I understand what Zippy is saying now about how it's virtually impossible to have the accident I was asking about... sort of... ok well, somes a little over my head.:D But I'll push the "I Believe Button" for now.


Mike, I was curious if you did any experimenting with your older gun(s).
 
On my mossberg 500 and my friends 590 the action will open upon firing if you don't hold onto the slide. They don't do it all the time but it does happen. My SWAG is that when the hammer starts falling it unlocks the action a split second before the shell is fired. We found this out shooting slugs from a rest one day.
 
When I was in the service, we had a functioning giant-sized wooden cut-away model of a M-1 Garand rifle. I suspect it dated back to WW II. It was a great training aid because you could see how even the smallest parts functioned and integrated with the others.

I wish the pump gun manufacturers made similar virtual models. It would be quite informative if we could see, side-by-side, how the various designs essentially accomplish the same thing with their action locks and disconnectors. It could help first time buyers and owners understand why the Mossberg and Remington controls (safety and action release) are located where they are and how they accomplish their tasks.
 
On my mossberg 500 and my friends 590 the action will open upon firing if you don't hold onto the slide. They don't do it all the time but it does happen. My SWAG is that when the hammer starts falling it unlocks the action a split second before the shell is fired. We found this out shooting slugs from a rest one day.

What's really happening is the recoil is "assisting" the bolt to open.
This is common when shooting heavy recoiling ammo.
Experienced shotgunners use this to allow faster operation.
What is NOT happening on a modern pump gun is the action unlocking before the shell is fired.

The Winchester Model 1300 actually has an action that takes advantage of this. As I recall, Winchester called it the "Speed action".
The action uses the recoil to partially open the action.

With guns like the Remington 870, you CAN'T press the slide lock to unlock the action then pull the trigger to fire.
The 870 has a disconnect design that disengages the trigger from the sear.
Press the action lock and the trigger bar is lifted up, preventing the sear from releasing the hammer.
Press the slide lock and pull the trigger, nothing happens. The trigger has been disconnected from the sear.
 
Dfaris is right about Rem 870s and NEF Pardners, you can't operate the trigger with the slide release pressed. The Winchester 1200 is the same way. However, the Mossberg 500 and 835, also Maverick, will allow the trigger to fire with the slide release pressed.
 
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