What tests would you like to see?

T

The Tourist

Moderator
During a debate about a week ago, we discussed the construction of knives, both serrated and plain edge.

I believe there is no practical use for serrations.

To demonstrate that, I called my supplier and secured a white steel, chisel grind Japanese deba kitchen knife, and a V-grind stainless laminate gyuto (chefs' knife) for testing.

Using waterstones in a modern rendition of 13th century practices, I'm going to polish the edges. I have chosen knives of that alloy and edge profile to show possible designs throughout history.

I intend to use parts of the Edge Pro system, freehand stones, pastes (chromium oxide in paste and liquid), polishing papers, and leather.

All of these items can be purchased by TFL members quite easily. No ringers.

Once the edges have been sharpened, they will be set up for display at my sharpening area for view by local members.

Any member can cut whatever they wish with the edges, and bring a serrated knife with them for any comparison. I'll even sharpen the serrated knife to level the playing field.

What do you guys want to see?
 
Cutting plastic tubing or rubber hose is the only good use I have found for serrated blades, they work very good for that purpose.
 
Alright all you Madison area blade junkies. I finished sharpening the knife. Chisel grind. White steel. An edge any 500 year old samurai would be proud to call his own. Come one, come all.

testedge.jpg


BTW, attention all of you Dane County muggers who like to prey on old graybeard bikers. I had a bit of time tonight to "polish" a nasty little surprise for all of you who tell "knife to a gunfight" jokes. If you ever see me holding this, run...

secret.jpg
 
Tuttle8 said:
Freshly baked bread
Click to expand...

This would be a very hard task--under normal circumstances.

The knife shown here is a traditional Japanese grind. And while the spine of the knife is very thick (twice, almost three times the thickness of most kitchen knives) the edge is a chisel design on one side, and a hollow grind on the obverse side.

The problem with warm bread is simply a dull knife. It won't cut, you press harder, and wind up squashing the loaf.

With this knife, you don't press at all. The weight of the blade makes a fine, perfect cut, cleaving straight to the cutting board.

And this is the purpose of the project. We have dull knives in this country. It seems we'll put $50K into a four-wheel drive ego truck that never leaves the pavement, but we won't spend more than five bucks on pocket knife or learn to sharpen.

As for plastic ties, I doubt I would feel the blade bite.

However, the deal holds. I want local TFL guys to cut things, and report back here so they don't think I'm kidding.

(And remember, a white steel Japanese knife is 500 year old technology. No super steels, no computer CAD design. No serrations.)
 
This would be a very hard task--under normal circumstances.
Click to expand...

I know. I don't expect for you to have Julia Child with her oven at your booth(:D), BUT very soft fresh bread is difficult to perform a clean, even cut without mashing up the bread.

Quality knives with sharp serrations are better suited for this rather than a plain edge. My humble opinion of course. That's my challenge to you. Plain edges may do OK, but serrated blades seem to provide a better cut with less effort.

Besides, you appear to know a lot more about knives than I do and you made me think...that's the best example I can come up with to stump you.
 
Tuttle8 said:
that's the best example I can come up with to stump you.
Click to expand...

That's the point of the test. It is my position in the debate that properly cared for implements do not need excuses.

For example, one of the elders in my church is an over-the-road truck driver. He asked my recommendation for a knife. He's a traditionalist.

I got him a Buck 110 Ionfusion knife. The blade is plain edged, but has a coat of titanium (it looks like gold) and the Rc rating is about 80. Most knives are Rc 57 to 59.

One night while he was eating, a guy parking his car pulled the right side bumper off of his truck. He phoned his supervisor and was told not to move the truck until he had full use of headlights and turn signals.

Using the Buck 110, he cut the damaged portion of the bumper off of the truck. He fabricated brackets for the lights and delivered his load.

The damage to the knife was a slight ding, which I fixed within five minutes. There was no cosmetic damage to the knife. None.

I'll say this again. If you pick the correct tool, and take care of it, you don't need tricks and fads.
 
i would like to someone use a strider BN against anything they want to :D I use mine for everything and the only thing that happend is that the stripes on the blade fade after you go through several seasons of rapids.
 
I ask in earnest...

You have a knife, plain edged, that won't cost an arm and a leg that will slice fresh bread without mucking it up?

If so, you have my attention...
 
Tuttle8 said:
I ask in earnest...

You have a knife, plain edged, that won't cost an arm and a leg that will slice fresh bread without mucking it up?

If so, you have my attention...
Click to expand...

Yes, it is a Japanese laminate white steel knife called a "deba." It is incredibly thick on the spine. The edge facing the camera is chisel grind, but the obverse side is hollow ground.

I polished the edges (front and back have different polishing disciplines) to a mirror finish. It cuts simply by resting the blade weight on the object to be cut. You do not have to press.

It will definitely cut fresh bread. Because it is in actuality a 7-inch samurai sword, in the hands of a MA expert, it will also take your hand off your wrist.

White steel is very reasonable in price. As a distributor, I paid about fifty bucks for the knife. To a client, the knife would cost 75 dollars, as delivered.

I would get 15 per inch to polish the knife, or about 105 dollars. In its condition, the end user's cost would then be 180 dollars.

deba.jpg
 
How 'bout multiple layers of cardboard or paper? I know it'll cut 'em, but the question is, how many times before the knife becomes too dull to do so?

(And why in the heck is cardboard / paper so hard on an edge anyhow? :confused: )
 
How about picking up a couple of daily use type pocket knives from Walmart or the local gun shop and add them to the mix.

For stuff to cut, (other than bread :)) try picking up some of the different geo textile materials used in road and pipe construction, heavy plastic and rubber, plastic banding material, various light and heavy foam and plastic wraps, etc. Then soak anything porous in a slurry to paste of mixed mud, sand and fine stone. Fabric packed in dried mud and dirt is also something to try.
 
Capt Charlie said:
How 'bout multiple layers of cardboard or paper
Click to expand...

AK103K said:
a slurry to paste of mixed mud
Click to expand...

From past experience, Japanese laminates cut this stuff easily. You have to remember that these knives usually belong to my working chefs. They bang these knives along bones, onto stainless steel kitchen counters, they clatter them bulk into cleansing sinks and even pry with them. They are still cutting for several weeks before I return to re-sharpen them.

What I really wanted was for area TFL members to come and make the cuts themselves. You know, a local forum member comes up to my sharpening stand and says, "Hey, Chico, I want to cut this garden hose with that fancy-schmancy Japanese knife..."

I have a great deal of respect for laminate steels. They are folded or clad with pounded layers that have a superior Rockwell hardness and very keen edges. Due to their very fine grain metal, they can take a sharper edge produced by finer grit stones than we Americans are used to. I can buff out the edges with paper, paste and glass so that no burr is discernable on their perfect edges.

Due you remember the old story about Saladin meeting English Crusaders? One soldier took a broadsword and smashed a log in two. Saladin replied, "The knight has simply shown me the strength of his arm."

He then tossed a silk scarf into the air and sliced it as it floated to earth.

I can show you pictures of anything being cut. But I'd prefer a TFL member cut something without the use of serrations and report back. But I will cut wet, muddy cardboard if you'd like.

After all, I do that daily when my snowy UPS boxes arrive...
 
I have an update here on my test knife.

I was at my sharpening stand today when a sous-chef for The New Orleans Take Out restaurants here in Madison came looking at knives. I showed him the mule.

Because their restaurants do not use laminates, he was quite taken with the edge and the balance of the knife. And he seemed like an honest and sincere individual.

I gave him the knife to use for a few days, and told him to put the mule through its paces in that working environment. I told him about our debate here, and I wanted input on how this style of knife could out-perform real world duties without serrations.

He was told not to worry about scratching the knife or dulling the edge. My advice to him was "Just use it, don't worry about it."

As you might guess, this mule is going to get the pounding of its life. It will be used for everything, and by everyone in that kitchen.

Imagine the abuse that edge is going to take while it is hammered down into a chopping block thousands of times making cole slaw or dicing vegetables. It will then have to make precise cuts on very expensive meat as the chef tries to provide the maximum amount of servings per delivery.

Giving a razor sharp white steel knife to a kitchen is like loaning a Corvette to a high school drivers ed class.

I'll keep you guys updated as the carnage continues.
 
shocked!

Alrighty I’m not one to usually interject my own opinions but I need some clarity here. Ok I’m a Chef and im failing to see what is trying to be proven here. Japanese kitchen knives were made for 2 primary things veggies and fish. These knives are not superior to western chef’s knives in any way besides being usually more aesthetically pleasing and to have a bit more mysticism behind them. The japanese sword and all of its renditions was made for the purpose of cleaving heavy bone and tissue. The forging practice of japanese smiths was developed due to the extremely poor quality of iron in Japan. Traditional japanese tamishigane steel had to be laminated so that carbon could be distributed evenly in the iron ore. today laminated steel is not needed due to the fact that all modern production steel is monochromium. Laminations are simply asthetic and let me add very very beautiful but in no way functional as is the forging process that they are made. The reason for the japanese forging process was to produce a blade that could be around 26 to 28 inches long and when struck against flesh and bone, or Tatami mats it could cleave as well as bend without snapping in two. for this reason alone the amazing metalugical process of producing blades was born and perfected. Im not trying to rain on anyones parade im just trying to clarify some things. On top of this if a kitchen worker is using their knife to pry anything or "banging" them around then they have no reason to be holding said knife! I knife just like a gun is a tool and should always be respected. Lastly all knives are serated. It is the micoscopic teeth on every edge that allows you to cut. I am sorry for being so defensive but this is my profession and to me i compare this to someone taking a nighthawk custom and using it as a hammer! Different knives have different purposes and they should be respected. now then as far as science goes it would stand to reason that you would take the exact same two knives one with a plain edge variation and the other with serrations and compare them in exactly the same ways.

Sorry guys I just got off work and im about to start doing a little polishing of my own.

Cheers
Austin
 
Austin Cowart said:
Ok I’m a Chef and im failing to see what is trying to be proven here. Japanese kitchen knives were made for 2 primary things veggies and fish.
Click to expand...

Perhaps one week ago we had a debate on serrated knives vs. plain edges. I took the "plain edge" side of the debate.

Many said that they liked serrated knives because "they cut longer when abused." I disagreed, saying that if a knife was well made and cared for, it could cut anything. After all, what did people do before serrated knives were invented or popular?

I also proffered that Japanese knives had a history going back at least as far as the 13th century, and the folded and hammered metal used/invented could dish out any abuse named, and still cut better than a serrated knife.

(I have always been baffled on why a hunter will pay +1,000 dollars for a rifle, 600 to 800 dollars for a scope, and then ask where the cheap 5 dollar knifes are displayed.)

So, I decided to put my money where my mouth was. I bought a Japanese white steel knife, no different from any other folded knife going back several centuries. I invited local TFL members to bring me some ideas for tests, and they could cut anything they liked with my knife--and then report in to the forum.

It is my belief that they will say have to admit that old technology, when properly cared for, is better than poor maintenance and serrations.

That's my agenda, pure and simple. About this time of year most Buck 110's are discounted to between 19 and 25 dollars. Everyone can afford to have a well made, plain edged knife that will give them years of use and abuse. I sharpen them every day. Lots of them are decades old.

There will never be a serrated knife that will out cut a plain edged blade that I have serviced. None. Never. Nil. Nada. You're fooling yourself if you believe in serrations.
 
ah

Alrighty then. Ill agree that I prefer a plain edge to modern serrations. I do believe that as there many many different types of knife blades there are just as many edges. It’s all about what works for you and what you are using it for. There is a reason the human body and every carnivore has serrated teeth. It’s for tearing and ripping at the same time we have flat teeth as well for gentle crushing in the back of our mouths thus serving another purpose. The same is for blades. We have saw blades for ripping and tearing and we have plain edge scrapples for delicate and precise cutting. I’m not arguing this point that debate is over. I do not appreciate though you referring to the professional cheffing community though in a manner that leads other readers to believe that we act like cave men beating our tools against things and misusing them in ways that they were not meant to be used especially 200 plus dollar ones. You are simply asking TFL formites most with no knowledge of the proper use of kitchen knives to come in and abuse a very nice and very expensive one. I applaud you allowing that sous chef to use her for a few days but if he is a real sous chef he would know how to respect the knife and at least do a bit of maintenance oh her every night just as I do mine. I don’t know if I would trust the knife around the number of line cooks though that think it just looks cool and would look even better in their home kitchen. Now why not hybrid polish a nice tanto or wakizashi made by hanwei or kris cutlery and keep a few tatami mats rolled and soaking and allow formites to try their hands at a little tamishigiri. That would be a great demonstration oh how a Japanese blade it suppose to function. This has the potential of really breaking out into another huge debate and I do not want to start and unpleasant topics. I would love to discuss this more I honestly would because it is something that is very near and dear to my heart and I would love to refer everyone that is interested in the pursuit of knowledge about blades over to www.swordforum.com some of the best blade smiths in the united states are members there and all myths about all types of blades are constantly dispelled. Also if anyone wants to watch torture tests of blades pick up a copy of cold steels More Proof and Sword Proof they are great if you can stand watching a big guy in short shorts cutting things.

Cheers
Austin
 
oh an

So, I decided to put my money where my mouth was. I bought a Japanese white steel knife, no different from any other folded knife going back several centuries. I invited local TFL members to bring me some ideas for tests, and they could cut anything they liked with my knife--and then report in to the forum.
Click to expand...

I will contest that the knife is different from a blade made even 200 years ago. Tamishigane steel it the prize of japanese blade smiths and is the only thing that real japanese blades were made from. All modern made japanese Tamishigane stays in Japan. It is not exported at all. There is only one man in America that makes tamishigane and that is Master Blade Smith Micheal Bell in Orgeon. the forging process is the same but no the knives themselves are not. If they were that blade would cost around and easy Grand.
 
one last thing before bed

I jumped into some of my japanese reference books just so i dont put my foot in my mouth and found that infact that forging technique and steel development for japanese blades was perfected in 900 A.D. by the smith Yasutsuna in region of Hoki in the Honshu provence. 4:30 in the morning what a great way to spend he time i should be sleeping!

Cheers
Austin
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top