What part of this don't you understand?

A very well done tribute, my hat is off to whoever created it, and thanks for bringing us the link to it. -BamaXD
 
I gotta say

A very well done tribute to our military members, it literally brought a tear to my eye. To any military member now, and then, thank you again for your service. As a vet myself, I know what hardships are endured.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
Thank you all, it pleases me to see you are pleased... :)

Seeing this tribute gives me hope for America.

I'm afraid I am not so easily inspired...

I think the ONLY hope for America is the reinstatement of the Draft... :cool:
 
I think the ONLY hope for America is the reinstatement of the Draft...
ah yes, thinly veiled slavery is the best thing for a country claimimg to defend freedom :cool:



This is the only draft Bush should be calling for.

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I wouldn't expect you to understand...

even if you did! :rolleyes:

But all of us who have served... know the benefits to our personal growth and maturity...

Like I said...
I wouldn't expect you to understand...
 
I think the ONLY hope for America is the reinstatement of the Draft...

Pointer, what do you mean by this statement? Are you talking about a draft to meet perceived manpower needs within the current conflict, or something along the lines of European or Israeli-style conscription, regardless of whether the country is engaged actively in some form of hostilities or not (i.e., mandatory military service for citizens once they reach a certain age)? Why would either proposal, if one of them is what you meant, be the "only hope for America"?
 
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nice attack pointer :p

If you served, good for you. But no one should be forced to do so. Conscription is slavery, nothing more. Goes against the very ideals of a free society.
 
Redworm, I'm not quite sure I can agree with you that conscription is the same as slavery, but I would like Pointer to clarify what he meant with his call for a draft, especially since he was the one who introduced the subject.
 
Thinly veiled Slavery Lite. Same great taste with half the calories.

His comment about personal growth and maturity are irrelevant to his comment about the draft. If someone wants to join the military and gain those benefits then more power to 'em. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll succeed in that personal growth in maturity; I've seen a number of retired, reserve, and active duty military personnel that are pure scumbags but fortunately they're a small minority. But the idea of forcing someone to fight in a war simply disgusts me. Now don't get me wrong, this doesn't apply to genuine national defense. If China landed in California tomorrow I would fully support putting a rifle in the hands of every man and woman in the nation to fend off an invading force.

But when it comes to cases like Vietnam I have no problem with those who refused to be sent to their deaths halfway across the world for something they didn't believe in. I'd feel the same way if a draft was called for this war. Doesn't mean I would back out of the enlistment contract that I have already signed but I would certainly support anyone who refused to take part in something they felt was wrong.
 
I am one of those who is against the war in Iraq but also thinks we should have a draft--and a larger army. I served in the army (enlisted), my father served in the army (drafted), my father-n-law (semi-drafted) and now my son is in the army (enlisted). And guess where my son is?

The draft shouldn't be seen as slavery but merely fulfillment of the normal obligation of citizenship. After all, we talk an awful lot about rights on this forum, or at least some do, but hardly anything about civil responsibilities. How many of us are good neighbors? Or are we wandering around our property "armed to the teeth" ready to "take responsibility for our own safety." What happened to citizenship? It isn't about being an individual but about being a member of your community.

As it is, sending the reserve and the guard overseas and retaining regular army members beyond their enlistment dates is another form of the draft.
 
Well said Blue Train

Leif
Pointer, what do you mean by this statement? Are you talking about a draft to meet perceived manpower needs within the current conflict, No

or something along the lines of European or Israeli-style conscription, Yes

regardless of whether the country is engaged actively in some form of hostilities or not (i.e., mandatory military service for citizens once they reach a certain age)? Why would either proposal, if one of them is what you meant, be the "only hope for America"?

Leif
I believe America's hopes are to be found ONLY in the character of it's citizens.

Serving through the draft or through the volunteer system causes certain things to take place which are inevitably good for the society as a whole.

The realization that there is something more important than yourself...

The awareness of ones need for your fellow citizens in order to accomplish either small or important undertakings...

The training in coordination of multiple efforts...

The focus on the team rather than on one's shallow little world...

Odedience to authority...

Self-respect instead of selfishness...

Sympathy, empathy and consideration of others in making one's choices...

Reaching and surpassing what you thought were your limitations...

These are character building success experiences that will influence the remanider of your life.

AND the result of a national obligation to serve would benefit the military in times of war or other disasters like "Katrina"...

Every citizen would be a marksman...
Every citizen would be trained for the emergency to come...
Every citizen would be a little more involved in the national mentality...

This country had a draft but the liberals destroyed that source of individual growth and national unity...

The lowest "worm" or scumbag who serves in the national defense system, can return home a better scumbag than he was...

Anyone who was good to begin with will come back better...
Veteran's will mostly agree with this...

Today's me4me generations have no concept of these virtues... and are filled with invective and negative comments about everything that was considered virtuous only a few decades ago...

The draft, until the "hip" sixties, was met with honor by most people... The liberals just contemptuously spit on everything.

I grant that on more than one occasion, the draft was unfairly applied to Irish and to blacks etc... But even the Irish vets and the black vets will recognize the importance of a well trained citizenry...

They and the Japanese (Nissai) veterans look back on their service with well-earned and deserved pride. I am glad I served, as well... and I don't know a single Vet who doesn't feel the same way.

Especially in a world where our enemies out number us 10,000 > 1...

Thanks for asking... but I fear the character of America is too far gone to be retrieved. :(
 
Serving through the draft or through the volunteer system causes certain things to take place which are inevitably good for the societyon the whole.
Not necessarily. There are scumbags, theives, murderers, rapists, liars, cheaters, and generally bad people that have served or are still serving in uniform right this very minute. A small percentage but it nonetheless proves that just because one is in the military does not improve that person's character. Much respect for those that serve with honor but not everyone serves with honor or remains honorable in other aspects of life.

The lowest "worm" or scumbag who serves in the national defense system, can return home a better scumbag than he was...
lol you simply can't help trying to make something out of my username

I guess I should clarify my point. Conscription such as that in the world wars and Vietnam is slavery. Mandatory military service in peacetime doesn't really deserve such a harsh word but I still believe it's wrong.
 
Pointer, that's quite a list. Thanks for the clarification. I have a few further questions and observations, as follows:

1) Setting aside the marksmanship and emergency services training, what items of desired learning experiences/objectives are not already supplied within the civilian world? For example, the civilian world provides numerous opportunities to realize that "there is something more important than yourself," or to learn "self-respect instead of selfishness," or for "reaching and surpassing what you thought were your limitations." I fail to see how military training can lay sole claim to these matters. Are you saying that only the military teaches these values well or efficiently, and therefore mandatory military service is needed to instill these values?

2) If we agree that these values should be taught (to which we haven't agreed as yet), isn't instituting a mandatory military service requirement a rather 'big government' solution? Shouldn't parents serve in the front lines, so to speak, in the war to mold their children's values, rather than asking the government in the guise of the military to do their parenting for them? Could not, and should not, parents be responsible for instructing their children in what essentially are the values of adulthood and maturity? Correct me if I am mistaken, but I thought that some of the tenets of modern conservative American political thought were personal responsibility and parental rights over and above the institutions of the state, as opposed to your proposal, which would interject a heavy government hand into the lives of its citizens?

3) Turning to the values which you wish people to obtain through mandatory military service, there is no legal requirement, Constitutional or otherwise, for people to conduct their lives according to values of unselfishness and empathy, nor is there a legal requirement that they become marksmen, or attain any of the other educational objectives that you specified. So, essentially what you are proposing when you propose mandatory military service with the objectives that you specified is an immense Federal program, funded through the taxes of its citizens, to train people in values that, while possibly desirable, are not required of them by the law as it stands - basically, what you seem to want is a really large social welfare program, though in this case with a values-oriented objective rather than an economic objective.
 
On the other hand, as a rebuttal to my own post, the draft has been the exception rather than the rule in the history of this country, and there were times when there were more foreigners than native born in the army. So maybe it isn't so cut and dried. All the same, there are those obligations, which also happen to include paying taxes, obeying the laws, helping others. In fact, we are here to help others. The question is, what are the others here for?

All the same, I believe that a draft would have certain side benefits. It will give those who serve invaluable experiences that cannot be obtained in any other way. It would also serve to modulate any extremist tendency that the military might develop, though there is really little evidence that any such tendency has ever occurred, as far as I can tell. If anything, the military has become more conservative in the last thirty years. On the whole that isn't such a bad thing but it has made it risk aversive. By that, I mean that it has made it reluctant to take risks that would perhaps have resulted in a more complete victory but the risks were not taken because of the sensitivity to combat casualties. Penny wise, pound foolish.

There are other trends that have occurred over the years (as I see it) that are mildly disturbing and the current administration seems bent on following those trends to the ultimate conclusion, which is a totalitarian society. That point is not necessarily gun related either, by the way. But think: first someone thought we needed a pledge of allegience because they were worried about all those foreigners, then it had to be under God because they were worried about not being under God, I guess. Next, we will all have to swear unquestioned obedience to HM George II.

And you people are worried about home schooling and the U.N.?
 
Leif
what items of desired learning experiences/objectives are not already supplied within the civilian world? For example, the civilian world provides numerous opportunities to realize that "there is something more important than yourself," or to learn "self-respect instead of selfishness," or for "reaching and surpassing what you thought were your limitations."
You misunderstand... It is the governments objective to train soldiers...
It is not my desire that the government have an objective to instill specific values in the citizenry... I am stating my belief that by serving in the military for training purposes, will have the side effect of instilling values which will improve the character of the citizenry...

isn't instituting a mandatory military service requirement a rather 'big government' solution? No Shouldn't parents serve in the front lines, so to speak, in the war to mold their children's values, Absolutely... but, alas they do not and because they were generally raised by incompetent parents, who were raised by incompetent parents... :rolleyes: rather than asking the government in the guise of the military to do their parenting for them?
(See above)
when you propose mandatory military service with the objectives (See above)that you specified is an immense Federal program, funded through the taxes of its citizens, to train people in values that, while possibly desirable, are not required of them by the law as it stands - basically, what you seem to want is a really large social welfare program, Hell no! What I want is for the character of the citizenry to become such that "really large welfare programs" become obsolete! though in this case with a values-oriented objective rather than an economic objective.
Asked and answered... :) ;)

BlueTrain
I believe that a draft would have certain side benefits. It will give those who serve invaluable experiences that cannot be obtained in any other way.
xactly!
It would also show them the world in microcosm and in a concentrated and compacted period of time. :)
 
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