I've been thinking about at some point buying or making from parts a match-grade AR-15. I already have a Bushy XM15 E2S A3 with 20" barrel. This has good accuracy, but I would like to get into the 1/2" MOA area. I am wondering if it would just be easier to buy a match grade upper (from say Compass Lake or Les Baer) and have a Jewell trigger installed in my existing lower. Is there anything else I would need on my lower to make it "match"? What do you think of this route, as opposed to buying a whole new setup?
What makes an AR-15 lower a "match" version?
- Thread starter rock_jock
- Start date
a part of the equation is the fit of the lower & upper
high end makers provide sets that are mated
some guys temporarily glue the upper & lower together!
if you reall want an accurate AR ya might want to look into space guns
have you cruised http://www.jpar15.com/?
woof!
expect bucks to make the gun more accurate but range time is the big factor.
Jarheadtop.com has some great books on technique
dZ
high end makers provide sets that are mated
some guys temporarily glue the upper & lower together!
if you reall want an accurate AR ya might want to look into space guns
have you cruised http://www.jpar15.com/?
woof!
expect bucks to make the gun more accurate but range time is the big factor.
Jarheadtop.com has some great books on technique
dZ
Duke of Lawnchair
New member
AR15
rock_jock,
A "match" grade lower receiver supposedly has a tighter upper/lower receiver fit. This, I believe is hog-wash. The accuracy of an AR15 has nothing to do with the upper/lower receiver fit. Since the front and rear sights are located on the upper receiver assembly, the sight will be on the same line of sight axis, that is if your barrel is installed properly, and does not move freely.
Reaching 1/2" moa is not an uncommon accomplishment with AR15s these days. You made mention that the rifle shoots great, and that you're looking for a reasonable upgrade. Have you tried ammunition such as Federal Gold Match, Black Hills, or even your own custom loads? If you haven't done so, then try that first. If you have, then maybe a clean trigger might help? I say "might" because a trigger will not make your rifle any more accurate than it already is, it'll make you shoot better, but it won't make the rifle shoot better. If you know this already, then please forgive me, I'm just reasoning some of your mentioned options out.
I would suggest this battle plan if you have already nailed down a "perfect" load for your AR15.
1) more range time
2) trigger upgrade
3) free-floated barrel
4) maybe a new upper?
5) if the gun still doesn't shoot 1/2 moa, then let me borrow it for life?
Take care,
Jim
rock_jock,
A "match" grade lower receiver supposedly has a tighter upper/lower receiver fit. This, I believe is hog-wash. The accuracy of an AR15 has nothing to do with the upper/lower receiver fit. Since the front and rear sights are located on the upper receiver assembly, the sight will be on the same line of sight axis, that is if your barrel is installed properly, and does not move freely.
Reaching 1/2" moa is not an uncommon accomplishment with AR15s these days. You made mention that the rifle shoots great, and that you're looking for a reasonable upgrade. Have you tried ammunition such as Federal Gold Match, Black Hills, or even your own custom loads? If you haven't done so, then try that first. If you have, then maybe a clean trigger might help? I say "might" because a trigger will not make your rifle any more accurate than it already is, it'll make you shoot better, but it won't make the rifle shoot better. If you know this already, then please forgive me, I'm just reasoning some of your mentioned options out.
I would suggest this battle plan if you have already nailed down a "perfect" load for your AR15.
1) more range time
2) trigger upgrade
3) free-floated barrel
4) maybe a new upper?
5) if the gun still doesn't shoot 1/2 moa, then let me borrow it for life?
Take care,
Jim
Duke,
I brought my Bushy out today for a 2-hour range session to measure its accuracy. First, I used a scope (ATN 5x33UL) since I didn't want to measure my ability to use the iron sights really well. Second, I varied the ammo with the following:
- Federal American Eagle 55 gr FMJ BT
- Winchester Ballistic 50 gr
- Hornady V Match Varmit 55 gr w/ Moly Coating
Now, let me get my excuses out of the way right up front. It was a very windy day, and the scope was only 5-power fixed (I prefer a variable w/ 10-power for accuracy tests).
Anyway, I did notice a difference with the better quality ammo, but even at that the best I was able to produce were a couple of 1.5" groups, and with the Federal ammo most groups were around 2.5-3".
I brought my Bushy out today for a 2-hour range session to measure its accuracy. First, I used a scope (ATN 5x33UL) since I didn't want to measure my ability to use the iron sights really well. Second, I varied the ammo with the following:
- Federal American Eagle 55 gr FMJ BT
- Winchester Ballistic 50 gr
- Hornady V Match Varmit 55 gr w/ Moly Coating
Now, let me get my excuses out of the way right up front. It was a very windy day, and the scope was only 5-power fixed (I prefer a variable w/ 10-power for accuracy tests).
Anyway, I did notice a difference with the better quality ammo, but even at that the best I was able to produce were a couple of 1.5" groups, and with the Federal ammo most groups were around 2.5-3".
Even a Colt GI A1 barrel will shoot under a inch with decent loads. The scope,trigger, handguard and shooting methods have the most affect on group size while the upper and lower fit is just pure BS. There is a bit of a trick to shoot one on the barrel support unless you have a freefloat tube.
Duke of Lawnchair
New member
ar15
addecus,
Long time no see! How did that DCM upper turn out for you?
As for a good shooting load, the only ammo I've run through mine as of yet is surplus ammo, but out of the surplus ammo the Spanish ss109 will produce MOA if I do my part. I just purchased some Black Hills 52, 68, and 77 grain fodder, and will be taking her out for a test drive tomorrow, and will let you know of my results.
Take care,
Jim
addecus,
Long time no see! How did that DCM upper turn out for you?
As for a good shooting load, the only ammo I've run through mine as of yet is surplus ammo, but out of the surplus ammo the Spanish ss109 will produce MOA if I do my part. I just purchased some Black Hills 52, 68, and 77 grain fodder, and will be taking her out for a test drive tomorrow, and will let you know of my results.
Take care,
Jim
One of these days Duke will have to come down for a visit and a friend and I will have to take him out to bust up the local squirrels using our AR15s.
Duke, I was in SLO last weekend with a buddy, we went shooting down off of the 166 and did a bit of clay pigeon shooting. I sure would have appreciated it if you could have hooked me up with some phone numbers or introduced me to a few hotties in the SLO area, you are still going to school over there right?
I'll be back there in about another month or two.
As for AR15 uppers that are superb performers, there are loads of people who turn them out. Personally I've got a JP Enterprises Grade 1 24 inch upper, it does 1/2MOA for 5 shots with my decent handloads and around 3/4MOA for 5 shots with most factory ammo. I've got one handload that averages around 3/4MOA for 10 shots.
I've also got a Bushmaster 20inch A3 that I use as a secondary gun for varmint shooting, it hasn't been through a formal range visit though where I scope it and shoot for groups to see what it's capable of. It doesn't have much problem bagging squirrels out to 200 yards though. With a Bushmaster using a nonfreefloated barrel getting down to 1 inch is about all I'd try for and anything under that I'd look at as a fluke and very likely hard to repeat with any regularity.
I've heard outstanding things about Metalcraft, CompassLake, Les Baer(although I think you pay more for it), Fulton Armory(expensive again), Sierra Precision, Gunsmoke Enterprises, as well as many others. Personal preference plays a bit when picking out a "spacegun" upper, so long as they are pretty much all equally capable in performance a little bit of personal taste can come into play so that you pick out the upper that truely sings to you.
Duke, I was in SLO last weekend with a buddy, we went shooting down off of the 166 and did a bit of clay pigeon shooting. I sure would have appreciated it if you could have hooked me up with some phone numbers or introduced me to a few hotties in the SLO area, you are still going to school over there right?
I'll be back there in about another month or two.
As for AR15 uppers that are superb performers, there are loads of people who turn them out. Personally I've got a JP Enterprises Grade 1 24 inch upper, it does 1/2MOA for 5 shots with my decent handloads and around 3/4MOA for 5 shots with most factory ammo. I've got one handload that averages around 3/4MOA for 10 shots.
I've also got a Bushmaster 20inch A3 that I use as a secondary gun for varmint shooting, it hasn't been through a formal range visit though where I scope it and shoot for groups to see what it's capable of. It doesn't have much problem bagging squirrels out to 200 yards though. With a Bushmaster using a nonfreefloated barrel getting down to 1 inch is about all I'd try for and anything under that I'd look at as a fluke and very likely hard to repeat with any regularity.
I've heard outstanding things about Metalcraft, CompassLake, Les Baer(although I think you pay more for it), Fulton Armory(expensive again), Sierra Precision, Gunsmoke Enterprises, as well as many others. Personal preference plays a bit when picking out a "spacegun" upper, so long as they are pretty much all equally capable in performance a little bit of personal taste can come into play so that you pick out the upper that truely sings to you.
Hey Jim, The first upper was no good. bore dia. was not constant and it just wouldn't group. sent it back. next one they sent was a keeper. about shooting highpower, go for it Jim ... you're really gonna like it! i mentioned towards one of your posts on ar15.com that this upper does well with Black Hills 68gr blue box. let me know your results. i'm usually over at ar15.com... stop by competitive shooting forum, a Sgt. Lew Tippie is there and he is really a great source of highpower info, really helpful guy. good to hear from you again, addecus.
Duke of Lawnchair
New member
update
addecus,
I promised you a range report on the Black Hills.
Here's the rundown on my DPMS uppered rifle:
1) 52gr. produced 5shot groups of less than an inch at 100yds with the smallest being 0.6" 10-shot groups were consistent in being less than 2"
2) 68gr. averaged 1.25" at 100yds. 5-shots
3) 75gr. was only tried at 200yds and averaged ~2.5"
My other AR15, Bushmaster A2 20Hbar:
1) 52gr. averaged ~1.8" at 100yds. 5-shots
2) 68gr. averaged ~2" at 100yds. 5-shots
3) 75gr. is a different story. Shot one 5-shot group at 100yds due to the fact that my barrel couldn't stabilize this load and resulted in a massive 5" key-holed group. I find this odd due to the barrel being a 1-9" twist. Shouldn't this twist rate stabilize up to 75gr?
I know all my groups were 5-shots a piece, but that's because 5-shots makes me feel good. Past that, my groups open up tremendously and my feelings get bruised.
My apologies for rambling on,
Jim
addecus,
I promised you a range report on the Black Hills.
Here's the rundown on my DPMS uppered rifle:
1) 52gr. produced 5shot groups of less than an inch at 100yds with the smallest being 0.6" 10-shot groups were consistent in being less than 2"
2) 68gr. averaged 1.25" at 100yds. 5-shots
3) 75gr. was only tried at 200yds and averaged ~2.5"
My other AR15, Bushmaster A2 20Hbar:
1) 52gr. averaged ~1.8" at 100yds. 5-shots
2) 68gr. averaged ~2" at 100yds. 5-shots
3) 75gr. is a different story. Shot one 5-shot group at 100yds due to the fact that my barrel couldn't stabilize this load and resulted in a massive 5" key-holed group. I find this odd due to the barrel being a 1-9" twist. Shouldn't this twist rate stabilize up to 75gr?
I know all my groups were 5-shots a piece, but that's because 5-shots makes me feel good. Past that, my groups open up tremendously and my feelings get bruised.
My apologies for rambling on,
Jim
teufelmann55
New member
AR-15
Interesting thing the AR-15 as far as I have heard that rate of twists are as follows:
1-14" original twist rate for the M-16 55gn load.
1-12" later change for better stabilization in the 'A1.
1-9" optimal twist rate for the 69gn load
1-8/8.5" best trade off for 69-80gn. wise.
1-7" latest twist on the 'A2 and also good for 75-80gn.
If you have an AR that consistantly puts 3 10 shot groups at 300yds under 3.5" from a test cradle you are in the running, if it shoots 3" or less you have a hammer. At least that is way I view it (with federal gold medal match 69gn)handloads may be better. This data applies to AR 15 CMP legal type guns. I have no idea how good a spacegun should shoot in comparison.
Tests by the AMU have found that there is no correlation between a loose fitted lower and upper accuracy wise. Most shooters like them tight though for whatever reason. Match lowers and bolt carriers are a myth (but the chrome or titanium coating makes cleaning easier). But a good trigger such as the Milazzo,Jewell, Accuracy Speaks amongst others help.
A good free float tube helps quite a bit also. Good iron sights w/minimum wobble are good if you are doing open sight competition.
Interesting thing the AR-15 as far as I have heard that rate of twists are as follows:
1-14" original twist rate for the M-16 55gn load.
1-12" later change for better stabilization in the 'A1.
1-9" optimal twist rate for the 69gn load
1-8/8.5" best trade off for 69-80gn. wise.
1-7" latest twist on the 'A2 and also good for 75-80gn.
If you have an AR that consistantly puts 3 10 shot groups at 300yds under 3.5" from a test cradle you are in the running, if it shoots 3" or less you have a hammer. At least that is way I view it (with federal gold medal match 69gn)handloads may be better. This data applies to AR 15 CMP legal type guns. I have no idea how good a spacegun should shoot in comparison.
Tests by the AMU have found that there is no correlation between a loose fitted lower and upper accuracy wise. Most shooters like them tight though for whatever reason. Match lowers and bolt carriers are a myth (but the chrome or titanium coating makes cleaning easier). But a good trigger such as the Milazzo,Jewell, Accuracy Speaks amongst others help.
A good free float tube helps quite a bit also. Good iron sights w/minimum wobble are good if you are doing open sight competition.
Sling Shot
New member
I can vouch for Compass Lake. I had one of their space gun uppers, and I had Frank to work some magic on the trigger. Trigger was a $100 and the upper was way up there. I found that the Black Hills 52 gr was very accurate in the Compass Lake. I tried some of the 52 gr match ammo from Georgia Arms, and the accuracy was horrible. I also tried some custom made ammo from a well known supplier. It was 68 gr and very accurate, but I had so much trouble out of cases getting stuck in the chamber, so I got rid of that ammo. I never had that problem out of the Black Hills. I never got around to testing the 68 gr Black Hills in the Compass lake because cash flow forced a sell in which I am still regretting. Sling Shot