What makes a carbine a carbine?
- Thread starter boing
- Start date
I could be wrong and probably am but it's a barrel length of 16", at least in the AR-15 vernacular. Actually, they're called CAR-15's if the barrel is 16". I have three different Carbines - a CAR-15, a Kel-Tec Sub-9 and a Ruger PC-4 and they all have 16" barrels so I'm led to believe it's a pretty standard naming convention.
Later,
Rich
Later,
Rich
Originally, a carbine was a short version of the infantry rifle. Carbines were carried by cavalry, engineers, artillerymen, and other soldiers who were not frontline infantry. Carbines fired the same cartridge, sometimes with a lighter loading, as the infantry rifle.
When ammunition developed to the point that adequate power could be had from a shorter barrel (about 1900), many nations adopted a shorter rifle suitable for all troops. The result was the German Kar98, the US Model 1903, the British SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield), etc.
The U.S. WWII M1 Carbine was the only carbine I know of that used a totally different cartridge from the service rifle.
Jim
When ammunition developed to the point that adequate power could be had from a shorter barrel (about 1900), many nations adopted a shorter rifle suitable for all troops. The result was the German Kar98, the US Model 1903, the British SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield), etc.
The U.S. WWII M1 Carbine was the only carbine I know of that used a totally different cartridge from the service rifle.
Jim
I believe you are referring to the so-called Sturmgewehr (assault rifle), which was chambered for the 7.9 Kurz (short) cartridge. You are right, the Germans did at one point call it "MKb" or machine carbine, so it was a carbine that did not fire the same round as the standard rifle, which was also a "carbine", the Kar98k.
Jim
Jim
cornered rat
Moderator
In some places (US, elsewhere?), carbines are shoulder arms that chamber a pistol (9x19, 40, 45) or a quasy-pistol (.30 carbine) round, whereas rifles use higher powered ammo. Makes .22 rifles into carbines, by that logic.
In Europe, they just call any short rifle a carbine. Same here, I think, before cartridges became common.
AFAIK...
In Europe, they just call any short rifle a carbine. Same here, I think, before cartridges became common.
AFAIK...
Edmund Rowe
New member
The most common usage for carbine is usually a shorter rifle. The earliest "modern" usage I've read of were the lever action Winchesters which were made with long "rifle" barrels and shorter "carbine" versions.
This usage of "carbine" continued through the 20th century.
The Jeff Cooper definition of rifle and carbine differs. The Colonel's "rifle" definition is a long arm shooting a full power cartridge. The definition of "full power cartridge" is fuzzy but usually something in use by the world's military's in the early half of the 20th century as a minimum. Examples are .30-06, .308, .303 British, 8mm Mauser, 6.5x55 Swede.
Another way to look at full power rifle definition by Cooper's side is something that can strike a telling blow to whatever you can see. I know that sounds vague. Read a lot of Cooper's stuff and it makes more sense.
The Colonel's definition of "carbine" is something shooting a caliber powered down, or inferior to the full power stuff. Note you could argue that .308 is a carbine round as it was sort of a cut down .30-06, but nobody in the Jeff Cooper school of thought seems to look at it that way as .308 is still considered pretty full power.
OK. 8mm Kurz or whatever the ole Wehrmacht Sturmgewehr shot was an example of a "carbine" caliber. Other examples are .223, 7.62x39 (AK-47 ammo), 5.45xsomething mm (AK-74 ammo), .30 M1 Carbine, etc.
The Jeff Cooper school of thought is pretty hard on carbines such as the AR-15/M-16, AK, M1 carbine, etc. I myself think that Jeff Cooper "rifles" are best for extended range shooting (beyond 25-50 yards). Cooper definition "carbines" are best for the close range multiple target engagement, such as in final infantry assault on a position.
I don't think the 2 types replace each other, they complement each other. Trouble is for the individual, which one do you carry?? I personally think Cooper carbines are better suited to defensive situations and the Cooper rifles are better for offensive "I'm looking for trouble" engagements.
Sorry for the long post. I got really into this one.
Edmund
This usage of "carbine" continued through the 20th century.
The Jeff Cooper definition of rifle and carbine differs. The Colonel's "rifle" definition is a long arm shooting a full power cartridge. The definition of "full power cartridge" is fuzzy but usually something in use by the world's military's in the early half of the 20th century as a minimum. Examples are .30-06, .308, .303 British, 8mm Mauser, 6.5x55 Swede.
Another way to look at full power rifle definition by Cooper's side is something that can strike a telling blow to whatever you can see. I know that sounds vague. Read a lot of Cooper's stuff and it makes more sense.
The Colonel's definition of "carbine" is something shooting a caliber powered down, or inferior to the full power stuff. Note you could argue that .308 is a carbine round as it was sort of a cut down .30-06, but nobody in the Jeff Cooper school of thought seems to look at it that way as .308 is still considered pretty full power.
OK. 8mm Kurz or whatever the ole Wehrmacht Sturmgewehr shot was an example of a "carbine" caliber. Other examples are .223, 7.62x39 (AK-47 ammo), 5.45xsomething mm (AK-74 ammo), .30 M1 Carbine, etc.
The Jeff Cooper school of thought is pretty hard on carbines such as the AR-15/M-16, AK, M1 carbine, etc. I myself think that Jeff Cooper "rifles" are best for extended range shooting (beyond 25-50 yards). Cooper definition "carbines" are best for the close range multiple target engagement, such as in final infantry assault on a position.
I don't think the 2 types replace each other, they complement each other. Trouble is for the individual, which one do you carry?? I personally think Cooper carbines are better suited to defensive situations and the Cooper rifles are better for offensive "I'm looking for trouble" engagements.
Sorry for the long post. I got really into this one.
Edmund
Jeff Thomas
New member
This thread is interesting, since I have become confused on this as well. It is clear different people attribute different definitions to this term.
One last question - pronunciation. Which is preferred - CAR-bean, or CAR-bine (long i, as in 'line')?
One last question - pronunciation. Which is preferred - CAR-bean, or CAR-bine (long i, as in 'line')?