LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
New member
get a fully automatic weapon?
What kind of hoops would I have to jump through to...
- Thread starter LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
- Start date
Look at the second post in this thread:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264851
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264851
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
New member
Thank you, now where would I go to find out if it is legal or not? Are there any ways I can find the city, county, state codes to abide by?
Here ya go!
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226809
In almost all cases, state law is where you need to look. Not many local governments regulate NFA weapons beyond what the state does.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226809
In almost all cases, state law is where you need to look. Not many local governments regulate NFA weapons beyond what the state does.
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
New member
thanks again, I need to cross the missouri into nebraska now, lol.
douglasschuckert
New member
The Howto:
1st thing is to identify if a machinegun is legal in your area. 2nd thing is to identify the item you want to purchase. 3. Contact that individual and/or dealer and pay for the item. Then if they are in the same state as you are, skip to THE STEPS below. If in a different state:
1. Find a Class 2 Manufacturer OR Class 3 Dealer in your State and ask him/her/them to send a copy of their FFL and SOT Status to the current owner. The current owner/their dealer will fill out a Form 3/4 and transfer it to your dealer. (If the item is currently on a Form 4, you will have to pay a $200.00 tax from their dealer to yours and then another $200.00 tax from your dealer to you).
THE STEPS:
You can go about it several ways.
1. Startup a Corporation or Limited Liability Company (not recommended as you have to file tax returns every year. After a couple years of filing a 0 return, the IRS will begin to raise eyebrows).
2. Construct a 'Trust'. This is the most viable and more recommended way of doing things. You can go about it by using Quicken Will Maker to form a Simple Trust, but Quicken does not leave room for special circumstances and is not very NFA/Firearm friendly as there are special rules one must adhere to in bequeathing them to heirs. Google 'NFA trust attorney'. It will lead you to some very good attorneys. David Goldman with Wood, Atter, & Associates out of Jacksonville, FL (http://www.woodatter.com) is a GREAT choice. He's EXCEPTIONALLY knowledgeable about NFA (due to the rules of NFA being Federal, State boundaries bear little to the trust’s wording. So you can use David even if you live in TX). A NFA Trust should cost in the neighborhood of $450.00. This is a one time expense, that’s good for life, and you can continue to transfer new acquisitions to the trust as time goes by.
3. Transfer the device to you as an individual. This carries some plus sides, and some very real negatives. The plus is that being you are the transferee on the Form 4, it belongs to you and no other entity. The downside is with this method there are several additional requirements:
a. You will have to have the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (i.e. your Sherriff, Governor, District Attorney, Chief of State Police, a Judge with Powers of Arrest, or in some area’s the County’s Mortician or Medical Examiner) sign two Form 4's certifying he has no knowledge you will do anything illegal with the item in question. This is easier said than done. About 90% of CLEO's will not sign the Form 4's outright refusing to do so.
b. Once you have the CLEO sign-off, you must have 2 pass-port photos made and attached to the duplicate Form 4's.
c. Have the Sherriff’s Department or the Local Police Department make two fingerprint cards. This HAS to be done by a LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY.
Finally when all this is complete, you must mail all this off to the NFA Branch along with your transfer tax payment and then the wait begins. The buggar of it is, Individual Form 4's take several weeks longer (by average) to be approved than Entity Form 4's, as they do a VERY INDEBTH background check on you.
This process you will have to repeat EACH AND EVERY time you want to acquire additional NFA items (after all.. 1 AOW or 1 Suppressor is NEVER enough).
Corporate F4's and Trust F4's have an average approval return time of about 30 days. Individual returns have been averaging about 90, God only knows the time required for a First Timer. My first F4 took 3 months. The other 5 have taken less than 30 days and those have been Corporate F4’s at that.
Good Luck my friend. It seems like a PITA, but it really isn’t that difficult!
Bear in mind that you can only own fully automatic weapons made and registered prior to May of 1986. That being said there is a very limited quantity of transferable status machineguns on the market, and depending on make/model of the weapon you’re seeking, you could be looking a prices ranging from $3,000.00 to $4,500.00 for a MAC (series) SMG, to $18,000.00 to $25,000.00 for an H&K MP5, M3 Grease Gun, or Tommy Gun, anywhere between $8,500.00 to $22,000.00 for an M16. Uzi’s, STENS, S&W 76’s, Stemple’s, STENples, ect. typically sell for around $7:$8k, and so on…. The price gaps are dependant on Make/Model/Configuration/Registration type/etc…
Hope this helps!
1st thing is to identify if a machinegun is legal in your area. 2nd thing is to identify the item you want to purchase. 3. Contact that individual and/or dealer and pay for the item. Then if they are in the same state as you are, skip to THE STEPS below. If in a different state:
1. Find a Class 2 Manufacturer OR Class 3 Dealer in your State and ask him/her/them to send a copy of their FFL and SOT Status to the current owner. The current owner/their dealer will fill out a Form 3/4 and transfer it to your dealer. (If the item is currently on a Form 4, you will have to pay a $200.00 tax from their dealer to yours and then another $200.00 tax from your dealer to you).
THE STEPS:
You can go about it several ways.
1. Startup a Corporation or Limited Liability Company (not recommended as you have to file tax returns every year. After a couple years of filing a 0 return, the IRS will begin to raise eyebrows).
2. Construct a 'Trust'. This is the most viable and more recommended way of doing things. You can go about it by using Quicken Will Maker to form a Simple Trust, but Quicken does not leave room for special circumstances and is not very NFA/Firearm friendly as there are special rules one must adhere to in bequeathing them to heirs. Google 'NFA trust attorney'. It will lead you to some very good attorneys. David Goldman with Wood, Atter, & Associates out of Jacksonville, FL (http://www.woodatter.com) is a GREAT choice. He's EXCEPTIONALLY knowledgeable about NFA (due to the rules of NFA being Federal, State boundaries bear little to the trust’s wording. So you can use David even if you live in TX). A NFA Trust should cost in the neighborhood of $450.00. This is a one time expense, that’s good for life, and you can continue to transfer new acquisitions to the trust as time goes by.
3. Transfer the device to you as an individual. This carries some plus sides, and some very real negatives. The plus is that being you are the transferee on the Form 4, it belongs to you and no other entity. The downside is with this method there are several additional requirements:
a. You will have to have the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (i.e. your Sherriff, Governor, District Attorney, Chief of State Police, a Judge with Powers of Arrest, or in some area’s the County’s Mortician or Medical Examiner) sign two Form 4's certifying he has no knowledge you will do anything illegal with the item in question. This is easier said than done. About 90% of CLEO's will not sign the Form 4's outright refusing to do so.
b. Once you have the CLEO sign-off, you must have 2 pass-port photos made and attached to the duplicate Form 4's.
c. Have the Sherriff’s Department or the Local Police Department make two fingerprint cards. This HAS to be done by a LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY.
Finally when all this is complete, you must mail all this off to the NFA Branch along with your transfer tax payment and then the wait begins. The buggar of it is, Individual Form 4's take several weeks longer (by average) to be approved than Entity Form 4's, as they do a VERY INDEBTH background check on you.
This process you will have to repeat EACH AND EVERY time you want to acquire additional NFA items (after all.. 1 AOW or 1 Suppressor is NEVER enough).
Corporate F4's and Trust F4's have an average approval return time of about 30 days. Individual returns have been averaging about 90, God only knows the time required for a First Timer. My first F4 took 3 months. The other 5 have taken less than 30 days and those have been Corporate F4’s at that.
Good Luck my friend. It seems like a PITA, but it really isn’t that difficult!
Bear in mind that you can only own fully automatic weapons made and registered prior to May of 1986. That being said there is a very limited quantity of transferable status machineguns on the market, and depending on make/model of the weapon you’re seeking, you could be looking a prices ranging from $3,000.00 to $4,500.00 for a MAC (series) SMG, to $18,000.00 to $25,000.00 for an H&K MP5, M3 Grease Gun, or Tommy Gun, anywhere between $8,500.00 to $22,000.00 for an M16. Uzi’s, STENS, S&W 76’s, Stemple’s, STENples, ect. typically sell for around $7:$8k, and so on…. The price gaps are dependant on Make/Model/Configuration/Registration type/etc…
Hope this helps!
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
New member
hmm maybe i'll just stick with semi autos if those are the prices, lol.
LiquidTension7
New member
Yeah they're expensive. The worst part is that once you start collecting stamps it's nearly impossible to stop.
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
New member
well i guess if I don't buy any, I'll not have to worry, lol. thanks for the input everyone.
douglasschuckert
New member
Full Auto's are WELL WORTH the expense once you get your first "Entry Level" gun like a MAC-10. It's all down hill from there. The good thing about them is they truly are investments. You can purchase one this year, shoot the ever living piss out of it, and sell it for a profit (damn near regardless of condition) the next year or whenever you need the money. The prices I quoted are just a range. There are deals to be had out there. They will never drop in value (as long as you're a smart shopper) and you will ALWAYS be able to get your money back out of them. The 1986 Ban will never be rescinded... not if the 'liberals' have their say in congress.
You do know a UMP is a post-sample only gun right? Meaning you have to be a C2/C3 SOT w/LEO Demo Letter to purchase. Then if you give up your FFL &/or SOT status, you have to dispose of it before hand. Either by destroying it to ATF Specs. (then showing them proof) or selling it to another dealer.
You do know a UMP is a post-sample only gun right? Meaning you have to be a C2/C3 SOT w/LEO Demo Letter to purchase. Then if you give up your FFL &/or SOT status, you have to dispose of it before hand. Either by destroying it to ATF Specs. (then showing them proof) or selling it to another dealer.
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
New member
yeah Idk. Guess I won't get one unless I hit the lotto, lol.
Hey LJ-MosinFreak-Buck, this is really just my own personal opinion, but I got to shoot FAs at a very young age and I feel they are over rated. I agree with the poster above though about them being a good investment. If you are really gung-ho on having some FA fun it's far cheaper to just find a range that rents them out to shooters. If you want to cheaply own a FA, then just learn how to bump fire. Sure it's not the same as a true FA, but it's really close to the real thing. Now if you really want to get into NFA toys without shooting a hole (pun intended) in your wallet, then invest in SBRs, SBSs, AOWs, or suppressors. They are FAR cheaper to own than a FA and they don't follow the '86 ban. Meaning that when you get those unlike a FA, you're not getting something made prior to 1986, you're getting something that's fairly new.
Like I said that's just my own personal opinion.
Like I said that's just my own personal opinion.
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
New member
yeah don't blame ya. lol.
Guess I could always wait until WW3 like Red Dawn to get one, lol!!! but no, bump firing can be fun, but it's inaccurate, lol. I like accurate with full auto capability.
Guess I could always wait until WW3 like Red Dawn to get one, lol!!! but no, bump firing can be fun, but it's inaccurate, lol. I like accurate with full auto capability.
douglasschuckert
New member
The UMP question
Well I need to rehash my previous statement about the UMP being a Post-Sample ONLY gun. You can purchase a UMC (the simi-auto version of the UMP) and have it converted to the UMP's magwell by www.hdps.org, basically making it look 1:1 to the UMP without the full auto capability (its a short barrel rifle after the conversion). It really is too bad that the MP5 registered sears wont work in these... it really really is... If you want a 'factory UMP' its a post sample gun only. Sorry chap.
Well I need to rehash my previous statement about the UMP being a Post-Sample ONLY gun. You can purchase a UMC (the simi-auto version of the UMP) and have it converted to the UMP's magwell by www.hdps.org, basically making it look 1:1 to the UMP without the full auto capability (its a short barrel rifle after the conversion). It really is too bad that the MP5 registered sears wont work in these... it really really is... If you want a 'factory UMP' its a post sample gun only. Sorry chap.