Hey there i know it was some kind of revolver. Maybe .38 with a 4 inch barrel? .357 maybe? What was standard ammo back then?I have read a lot on guns used by criminals of the era but nothing in what the G-Men used. Was ammo really loaded hotter in those days? Thanks, 45automan
WHAT KIND OF HANDGUN DID THE FBI USE IN THE 20'S AND 30'S?
- Thread starter 45automan
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
The standard issue gun for FBI in the 1920s & '30s was either a Colt or Smith & Wesson in .38 Spl.
The .357 Mag. wasn't issued generally until the 1960s or even the 1970s.
Agents have always had some lattitude in what they could carry IF they have enough years in. I know two who are still carrying Model 13 S&Ws.
As far as I know, the neither the .38 Super nor the .45 ACP were ever standard issue.
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
The .357 Mag. wasn't issued generally until the 1960s or even the 1970s.
Agents have always had some lattitude in what they could carry IF they have enough years in. I know two who are still carrying Model 13 S&Ws.
As far as I know, the neither the .38 Super nor the .45 ACP were ever standard issue.
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Jeff,
The name for S&W's N-frame .357 Mag. prior to it becoming the Model 27 was "The .357 Magnum."
No muss, no fuss.
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
The name for S&W's N-frame .357 Mag. prior to it becoming the Model 27 was "The .357 Magnum."
No muss, no fuss.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
Automan,
I cannot provide a definitive answer, however, my father was a Special Agent and Bureau firearms instructor in the early '40s and '50s. The issue weapon at that time was Smith .38 Special (blued) on an "N" frame (although I suspect the "N" designation was not yet created). I believe the revolver had a four-inch barrel. I suspect this would have also been the distributed handgun throughout much of the '30s, but I do not know if it applies to the '20s. All the loads I ever saw were either FMJ or lead nose, but perfectly rounded and shaped like a FMJ round (no HPs, etc.).
[This message has been edited by RWK (edited July 22, 2000).]
I cannot provide a definitive answer, however, my father was a Special Agent and Bureau firearms instructor in the early '40s and '50s. The issue weapon at that time was Smith .38 Special (blued) on an "N" frame (although I suspect the "N" designation was not yet created). I believe the revolver had a four-inch barrel. I suspect this would have also been the distributed handgun throughout much of the '30s, but I do not know if it applies to the '20s. All the loads I ever saw were either FMJ or lead nose, but perfectly rounded and shaped like a FMJ round (no HPs, etc.).
[This message has been edited by RWK (edited July 22, 2000).]
Mike Irwin
Staff
RWK,
I seriously doubt that the FBI was issuing N-frames, this is the same size frame as the .44 Mag., and is quite beefy for carry concealed.
As I noted above, I believe that the FBI was issuing K-frame guns, more than likely the pre-Model 10, which were then known as the Military & Police Specials, as well as the Colt counterparts.
As far as frame designations, K, M, N, etc., those were being used in the factory as early as the first decade of the 20th century.
Smith & Wesson's break-top revolvers were broken down frame-size-wise by numbers. The Number 3 frame was the basis for the S&W Russian & Schofield single actions.
Letter designations were adopted because manufacture of the Hand Ejector solid-frame guns overlapped with the break tops by 20 years.
The letters were chosen to avoid confusion with the breaktops.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited July 22, 2000).]
I seriously doubt that the FBI was issuing N-frames, this is the same size frame as the .44 Mag., and is quite beefy for carry concealed.
As I noted above, I believe that the FBI was issuing K-frame guns, more than likely the pre-Model 10, which were then known as the Military & Police Specials, as well as the Colt counterparts.
As far as frame designations, K, M, N, etc., those were being used in the factory as early as the first decade of the 20th century.
Smith & Wesson's break-top revolvers were broken down frame-size-wise by numbers. The Number 3 frame was the basis for the S&W Russian & Schofield single actions.
Letter designations were adopted because manufacture of the Hand Ejector solid-frame guns overlapped with the break tops by 20 years.
The letters were chosen to avoid confusion with the breaktops.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited July 22, 2000).]
Mike,
I called my Dad in South Carolina to confirm my earlier information. He is 85 and does not remember everything with clarity, but he said ".38 Special on a .44 Frame". I don't know, and he doesn't remember, if that was a unusual deal he had or if it was the generally the issued firearm, but it was Bureau property not a personally owned sidearm.
Regards.
I called my Dad in South Carolina to confirm my earlier information. He is 85 and does not remember everything with clarity, but he said ".38 Special on a .44 Frame". I don't know, and he doesn't remember, if that was a unusual deal he had or if it was the generally the issued firearm, but it was Bureau property not a personally owned sidearm.
Regards.
Robert Foote
New member
If I recall correctly the Bureau was only authorized to carry firearms around the mid-20s if not a little later. Most federal agencies, including mine, had very liberal policies on weapon selection. In those days the Colt Police Positive was THE police gun of choice almost anywhere--but they could also choose some very strange stuff. The S&W came on strong in the police market in the '50s and ate Colt's lunch. (Much like Glock ate S&W's in the 80's.) My father was issued both 1917 Smiths and Colt New Service revolvers in the Border Patrol in the early '40s. Lots of officers chose to carry a personal weapon which could well include semiautos, N frame Smiths in .38-44 and .357. My agency as late as 1972 specified only 'American made, .38 Special or above'. We had a lot of M10 Smiths around by that time and the issue round was--you guessed it--158 gr RNL.
In some ways that range of choices was the best way to go as long as the officers were gun-wise. Today, of course, the guns are chosen for us by experts, lawyers, and bean counters--such as the S&W 10mm FBI wondergun.
It really makes you wonder when 10 different agencies in one area choose 10 different guns--all of which are the 'best possible choice'.
Just a rant from a retired LEO firearms instructor. Sometimes I forget that it's not my concern anymore...
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In some ways that range of choices was the best way to go as long as the officers were gun-wise. Today, of course, the guns are chosen for us by experts, lawyers, and bean counters--such as the S&W 10mm FBI wondergun.
It really makes you wonder when 10 different agencies in one area choose 10 different guns--all of which are the 'best possible choice'.
Just a rant from a retired LEO firearms instructor. Sometimes I forget that it's not my concern anymore...
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I believe the 'issue' was the 38/44 which was the larger frame revolver. It is a .38 Special which is why the 1911 was popular in .38 Super. Yes, some chose the 1911 as did many of the bad guys since the makers of 1911's, BAR's, and Thompsons were all looking for a market after WWI (yes I know the Thompson was not invented until 1928, my point was the Auto Ordnance was still searching for customers). The .357 that came out in 1935 was 'issued' to at least one FBI man, J. Edgar Hoover got SN 1 (or some other very low number) with a 3.5" barrel. The .357 was superior to the .38 Super against cars.
By 1955 when my father entered the Bureau they were issuing 4" tapered barrelled mod 10's (K-frame) or the Military & Police as it was called. It was not until about 1979-1980 that they began to issue the mod 13 with 3" barrel (.357 fix sighted K-frame). My father retired in 1977. After 1981 there were SIG's and the S&W 1066, though I have never met or talked to an agent who was ever issued one, and Glocks. In the early 1970's I did meet three agents who did not carry any of the approved revolvers, one with a S&W mod 39, one with a mod 59, and one Browning HP. I never saw those agents on the range qualify with any of those guns, they always shot the mod 10's or a mod 19 that they purchased themselves. The vault also had a variety of Walther PPK .380's and S&W mod 49's that could be checked out by agents on undercover assignments. That was in the early 1970's, I know the mod 49 was available in the 60's, but I didn't see any Walthers. The Mauser 98 rifles were replaced around 1971 with the Remington 760 (or was it a 742, it was the pump rifle in .308 with a 4x B&L scope). The Mausers in the OKC office, about a dozen, were all sent to Tinker AFB and chopped up into little pieces. When the M16 replaced the Thompson SMG around 1973 or 74 each office was allowed to keep a couple for show with the neat hardcase, but all the rest were sent off to Tinker to be hacked up also.
By 1955 when my father entered the Bureau they were issuing 4" tapered barrelled mod 10's (K-frame) or the Military & Police as it was called. It was not until about 1979-1980 that they began to issue the mod 13 with 3" barrel (.357 fix sighted K-frame). My father retired in 1977. After 1981 there were SIG's and the S&W 1066, though I have never met or talked to an agent who was ever issued one, and Glocks. In the early 1970's I did meet three agents who did not carry any of the approved revolvers, one with a S&W mod 39, one with a mod 59, and one Browning HP. I never saw those agents on the range qualify with any of those guns, they always shot the mod 10's or a mod 19 that they purchased themselves. The vault also had a variety of Walther PPK .380's and S&W mod 49's that could be checked out by agents on undercover assignments. That was in the early 1970's, I know the mod 49 was available in the 60's, but I didn't see any Walthers. The Mauser 98 rifles were replaced around 1971 with the Remington 760 (or was it a 742, it was the pump rifle in .308 with a 4x B&L scope). The Mausers in the OKC office, about a dozen, were all sent to Tinker AFB and chopped up into little pieces. When the M16 replaced the Thompson SMG around 1973 or 74 each office was allowed to keep a couple for show with the neat hardcase, but all the rest were sent off to Tinker to be hacked up also.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Two votes for the .38/44, now that IS interesting...
None of the sources I've ever consulted has ever said anything about the .38/44 being an issue gun for the FBI.
I passed up a .38/44 a couple of months ago... Now I may not pass up the next one I see. (G!)
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
None of the sources I've ever consulted has ever said anything about the .38/44 being an issue gun for the FBI.
I passed up a .38/44 a couple of months ago... Now I may not pass up the next one I see. (G!)
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Here is a question for you guys...
"WHEN did the FBI authorize the carry of weapons for it's agents?"
"WHEN did the FBI authorize the carry of weapons for it's agents?"
Robert Foote
New member
"On June 18th, 1934, President Roosevelt signed legislation passed by the 73rd Congress, which gave special agents of the FBI the power to carry a gun and the power to make arrests. The FBI had previously been very limited in scope...Guns had been issued only under dire circumstances."
Source: 'Guns of the Gunfighters', Guns & Ammo Magazine, Petersen Publishing, Los Angeles, CA 1975; page 178, 'Melvin Purvis, Flamboyant FBI Gunfighter'.
Sounds about right. I believe that this was mentioned in the 1950s movie 'The FBI Story' starring Jimmy Stewart.
FWIW.
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Source: 'Guns of the Gunfighters', Guns & Ammo Magazine, Petersen Publishing, Los Angeles, CA 1975; page 178, 'Melvin Purvis, Flamboyant FBI Gunfighter'.
Sounds about right. I believe that this was mentioned in the 1950s movie 'The FBI Story' starring Jimmy Stewart.
FWIW.
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George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Okay - thats what I thought...
SO if thats the case - HOW was the FBI issuing guns in the 20s?
I think some folks here are mistaking FBI for US Treasury and such.
SO if thats the case - HOW was the FBI issuing guns in the 20s?
I think some folks here are mistaking FBI for US Treasury and such.